The Algona Republican from Algona, Iowa on August 21, 1895 · Page 7
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The Algona Republican from Algona, Iowa · Page 7

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THE REPUBLICAN ALOOKA, IOWA, WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 21. 1SU5. t&-\ i>-i 18 HOT AND HEAVY the Pife en ittth Sides at the Silver Debate. BAY OF tHE DlSCUSSlOM. flatte* Farther Elucidates Hie ot Scientific Bimetallism, and Citunc thnt, 84,800,000,000 In frlmftfy Slonf.v !•< Deeded tn Do Basinet* in this Cou-ury on a Safe Bisis—Uoft Goes Largely Intu Cotnpai-tiUvo Prices of Products. [Copyright, ISO'S, by Aael F. Hatch.) In opening the seventh day's debp.te oh silver Horr referred to a statement inndc by Harvey that silver dollars of 41.'^ grains standard silver Were coined in 1874 and 1874 for the people of Nevai:», Colorado and perhaps California out of silver produced in the United States and under the free coinage law. Horr sail he could hot understand how it could be as 413J4 grains of silver Were Worth more un- coined than coined at that time. Horr added that he had hunted the matter up and found that the truth Was this: "Con* gross had previously provided that certain foreign silver coins should ba redeemable at the treasury and tho several postofllces and land offices of the government, at a certain fixed valuation. In the second section of the act of February SI, 1867, congress provided: 'And be it further enacted that the said coins When so received shall not again ba paid out or pub into circulation, but shall be recoined at the mint. And then the director of the mint also tells us that over 16,000,000 of silver had accumulated in the mints found in tho gold during the process of assaying It. The silver dollars which you tried to account for were all coined at the mint in Philadelphia, and not from the silver taken to tho mint by our producers at all. I give my authority as the report of the mints ot the United States. And I defy my friend Harvey to show any instance from the report of the entire mints where after 1858 a dollar of our American product was ever received for free coinage in any mint in the United States." Harvey replied: "Air. Horr has persistently quoted In this debate authorities which he has not produced here in this room. I want that impressed on the mind of the public. He has just made a statement with reference to the coinage of silver dollars that I deny, and he cannot produce the authority here to prove what he has said. I will only answer It incidentally, but sufficiently. I hand Mr. Horr the report of the director of the mint for 1802, and call his attention to 412,4Q;j silver dollars coined at the mint at Carson City, Nov., In the year 1870." Ee then proceeded with the argument in relation to primary and credit money, prefacing his remarks with the statements that the change to gold standard." [It should, be stated that Harvey has his whole argument prepared—written— and at hand. Each chapter of his book is taken up in its order and discussed. All this matter was gotten up before the debate began and the authorities ho depends on are placed in their order among his manuscript. Horr speaks without notes and jumps from one part of the ••School" to another as he finds something he takes issue with.] Harvey then proceeded with his argument in order, taking it up where he dropped it Tuesday afternoon. He said: "An over-issue of crepit money creates a lack of confidence in the ability of the government to redeem it, and a strain on its primary money begins. In other words, it causes a run on the government for the redemption of its credit money. This forces the government to issue bonds to borrow primary money. So long as this unhealthly relative proportion of , credit money to primary money continues the run on the treasury will continue and the borrowing by the government must continue. And the more it borrows the greater the strain, as tho interest on bonds demanded in primary money will be an < additional strain. This is what Mr. Cleveland calls 'an endless chain." If at a period like the present, when geld only is by law primary money, we increase the stock of credit money by issuing more paper money, or by coining more silver as credit money (the way in which it is now treated), we increase the strain on gold and hasten the financial chaos that must come. The quantity of gold now in the United States is variously estimated at from 1400,000, QOO to $600,000,000, The quantity of credit money outstanding is about $1,000,000,000. Hence a surplus of from $400,000,000 to 1600,000,000 of credit money is now in circulation, and the run on the United States treasury must continue till the credit money is reduced to the quantity of gold in the country, or tbe stock of primary money Is increased. "Euch time a government gold loan is made with, say, the Bothschilds behind tbe treasury,, temporary confidence will be restored and prices will advance. The government supplying itself with gold pauses the gold hoarders in the United States to let their gold out. But as t-be golden sand in the hour glass at Wash, ington runs out again, as it must, a scare returns, gold boarding begins again, tbe demand for gold increases, and prices correspondingly fall, The end is nation* ai bankruptcy. To correct tbte system is national prosperity," 1 Hprr then ebpwed that Harvey bad jnietated the facts when be said «8,4Q9 in silver dollars had been coined in tbe Car* son mint in J87Q, and tbst it was w^ ( Harvey having read the dollar rnarjs as a figure "4," Harvey admitted this, and gorrwent on, "Now this mint report which be handed me shows that after 1870 up to i§74, in tbe entire mint in V .... City there were only coined J9,888 gf the old silver dollars* The, mint report will §bow that? those were OQlued from the ' accumulated in assaying tbe gold j to tb»5 mint, I now proceed t9 i that up tQ this moment Mr, Harvey has not Mid 'on? word-upw tbe r~" pestlonlu debate, He spent hours proje that tbe law. of 3 §79 was pqncei •-fcjitoahd brought fortl* iu Iniquity >ay§ # short pu.QQi»9t bjtetory «f fas r~' '- i>! tbe bill end the steps talen jn its " has not gu«p,ej§?»Jly esRtjQ. Crayon, eiy §et »fWbery p> iHlsrfog Sfes prpgms ef. Ihafc Mil •, SQiigrgag. He hfti pritita" t9' pp.? 0 * h »& Wh.§n J&e, ^$,0^ --IJJlfiftnd, was jg,tte._.„ m §, pllCj? fil !«YSP byjegjsja? every country in the World. But sap SjK?4j we admit that by th<j coneerteii action of these countries, including all Europe, except England, the;) did prevent, with the conditions tha existed in those days, ft variation of mnn than two polnta between the legnl nn( commercial ratio, t'.iatdoes not help .Mr Harvey in this debate in the least,. Tha does not tend to show that the U.iitec States government alone with tho entirt cirill2od world refusing ites coinngo oi silvei 1 and When the difference botweer the commercial ratio; and the legal rati< is 16 points, can restore t&e old ratios. I proves that if the combined action of tin civilized frorld, eicept Great Britain With the half civilized nations—:ill thti havo silver Working to help them—ooulJ not maintain a parity between the loga! and commercial ratios when the produc tiou of gold and silver Were nearly tht same, how when the production of silvei has increased twice as fast as that of goir it is folly to claim that this nation alone Can restore that old ratio. "Mr. Harvey admits as much When hi provides for cutting down the size of tht gold dollar. He has not had the hardihooi to claim that the United States alone car. restore the old ratio. 1 think he does no' desire to have any such thing occur. He says reduce the size of the gold dollar- tolls us that the gold dollar has been coiv stantly advancing in price, and that the silver dollar has remained stationary. Ht says over and over again that an ounce ol silver will exchange for as much ot 1m man productions today as it ever would. Now, my proposition is that gold has re malned nearly stationary in price sinc« 1873, and that silver has fallen in price in accordance with the great law of supplj' and dsmand." Harvey began on taking the floor by saying: "The table on production of silvei for the world shows the world's produc' tion i:i 186) to have baen 543,800,003, and that thu production increased each yeai till 18713, twelve years later, when it wa» S05,S50,000. Here was an increase of 0) per cent. In twelve years la tho production of silver. Now if you are right, why did not this increase break down the price ol silver from 1H6.) 1878? And before you answer I call your attention to the twelve years, 1873 to 1S81, when the increase is 63 per cant,, 1 per cent, loss than tho previous twelve years, during which time thu price of silver had fallen 17 per cent." Horr said he would take time to think over that question, and Harvey continued: ''Alt'. Horr challenged me to short where any dollars were coined outside of the Philadelphia mint. I did that. Now I want to say to Mr. Horr, while disputing all that he has said, that thti silver derived from gold in refining gold at the mints was not coined into dollars, but was coined into fractional silver. Suppose u man in Nevada had a lot of silver bullion and wanted it coined in those years into silver coin. Now a or 3 per cent, premium for silver would bo no inducement to that man to ship that bullion to London—that is where this premium was; it wasn't here nor in New York. The freight and insurance and expressage would more than consume that 2 or 3 per cent,, not to speak of hU being out of the use of his money in the meantime. Hence he would take it to the United States mint and have it coined into raouey that he could use immediately." Resuming the matter of credits Harvey said: "To say there is $4,800,000,000 deposited in tbe banks is today at the same time the banks are drawing interest on |3,800,000,OtKi of it. It works this way: A deposits $10,000 in a bank. B borrows the $10,003 from the bank, but does not take the money; it is placed to his credit., Now the @10,000 has swollen to $20,000 on deposit. The $10,000 is still in the bank. C comes in and borrows it, and places it to his credit. Now there is $30,003 on deposit. Interest; is being paid on $33,000 of it. A has $10,000 to his credit, the capital in his business, on which he is paying no interest. B and C have each $10,003 to their credit as capital in their business, and they are both paying interest." Horr took the floor with the remark that he would discuss • that later "in ita regular order" and proceeded: "It is all idle talk, Brother Harvey, about silver costing $3 auouuce. To add to the cost of producing an article all the money that has been lost in mining speculations and gambling is too ridulous to announce as an economic proposition. There are mines in the United States that dan pro* duce silver, and save money, at 15 cents an ounce—large mines that are doing that very thing today," He then quoted M. L, Suuddor, who, naming tbe mines and having seen the books, said silver was produced In one mine at a fraction over IS cents and in another at ?4 cents an ounee. Harvey rejoined: "What Mr. Horr has said about the cost of producing silver he could have said with a groat deal more force about the cost ot producing gold, Gold, dollar for dollar, costs a great deal less than silver does." Ha then read from Del Mar on the History of Money; "Apart from other considerations there can be but little doubt that the average cost of producing a pound of silver, from tbe beginning of the world to the present time, bas been far greater than that of producing a pound of gold," He then told of tbe uncertainties of sllv«r mining—bow you never know just "where you are at," as it were; bow we all know tbf/t of 100 of o-ar friends who may go into ellver mining, ninety«nlne ooroe baojj "broke," He said that tbe mines pontlnued to pro. dpce bepnuse j»en would gamWe^ris?? their money on the hope of making a fortune suddenly, and because a large per cent. Q{ tbe product of tbe mines la gold, Only three or Ipur silver minef are left in tbe United States that are paying, To Sender's, statements be replied byfle. daring tbftt s.oudjer vfas a frau3, who was ?eut e»t to Colorado to defame bis owji -jQimtry, the. willing servant of the National Sftofetagr association. Horr denied that it cost aj much to get a pound of jlive? as a pguwd o£ gold,, It had not been <Joue for mawy t year*, OelMar wsuW S!JQW tbe tlQ» *a yaljw? lr9J» 4 to } 39WB. " has alwayp been wl4»Bi ng and silver always been getting cheaper, §Q has goW," Hsthsntoofe HP,the question, t^ effect oj djlJlQlje^ntlftn QB. the mar: W 8r>o4he,?i JJajpy, {n Mojj^ay'f 45' bate staled, itlMt swing $,9 the repuaiptl«R of $2,633,320,1(53 In ctirrenOy. This ia an average of 86 Scents a bushel in currency or 85 cents in gold. Itt 18l)0 to 1894 they wore raising annually on an average 1,60»,170,837 bushel With a total value of $J,379.864,093 for the five years, which is 42.1 cents per bushel. Here Is an advance in gold of 7.1 cents a bushel between the two years." Harvey replisd: "As to corn. (.See statistical abstract, pftf?e 284). For 1872 We produced in tho United States l,COi!,- 719,000 bushels of corn. We then had n population ot 40,59(5,000. Sn 1894 the United States produced 1,(21^,770,052 bushels, with n population of 68,275,000. For 1872, 24J£ bushels per capita; for 1894, 17& bushels per capita. SeVen bushels less per capica In 1894 than In 1872. "Take it another Way. the number of farm animals (corn-eating animals) in the United States for the years 1872 and 1895 is shown by the same statistical abstract, pages 29a and 294, and by taking the corn crop for these two years, as shown on page 284, We find that there were ten bushels of corn to each animal for thn year 1872, and only lit for each animal for 1894." Tho uses or corn had also vastly multiplied in the intervening years. Horr then proceeded With the value ot farm products: "In 1876 to 1879 tho iin- tion raised each year an average crop ol' 371,787.76 bushels of oats; they were worth during those five years $5,83E>, 0(55.04, or 81J4 cents per bushel in currency, or 29,8 cents in gold. In 189U to 189o the average annual oat crop was 644,788,855 bushels, with a total value for those five years of $1,063,807,376, or 34.4 cents n bushel in gold. These figures show that tho greatest cu-eals have not been decreased In price by the legislation of 1873. Silver has been constantly going down, corn and oats are higher in gold value than they wore in tho five years previous to 1879. "I will now refer to wheat. The price of wheat was depressed because It was so largely exported. The value of the other grain ' was maintained, yes advanced, because corn and oats are mainly marketed upon the farms upon which they are raised. Let us now strike a balance for these great cereals in the United States. The United States from 1875 to 1879 produced of corn, oats and wheat an annual average of a, 111,533,219 bushels, with nn annual average value in currency of 46 7 cents a bushel, or 44 4 cents in gold. From 1893 to 1894 they raised an average crop of 2.723,637,^20, with on average value of 44.4 cents a bushel. This is exactly the same as the gold average for the years before the silver legislation; before, according to Brother Harvey, the effect began to be felt in the prices of the United States." Harvey replied by stating that a farmer in Mexico sells wheat in London at $1.25 per bushel in silver and pays $1.25 of debt. \Ve sell our wheat at London at 65 cents, and can pay no more than 65 cents worth of debt with it. He then said that the question of the amount of money needed in this country was an important question and figured it at@4,800,000,000. This was primary money.' He ridiculed the confidence idea. Horr took up the statement about the Mexican farmer and his wheat. He said the Mexican who sold his wheat got Mexican money. The American got American monuy. The latter could go to Monterey and depositing the dollars he got for his wheat get just twice as many Mexican dollars therefor. Harvey objected as to the American farmer that he could not pay so much debt with the money he got and Horr, said he would coma to that later. He said: ''In 1573, when this act passed, calicoes, averaged 11J4 cents a yard. The farmer can buy it now; for f>)4 cents, cheapened not by cutting in two the measure of value, for we have the same measure of value we had then, but cheapened by the great law of cheaper production. A reaper which then cost $170 can be bought today for $7J. A mower which cost 890 then can be bought : now for $45, "—and so on. "Silver has been cheapened in precisely the same way. So have Iron, copper, lead, aluminium and every other leading commercial article." Harvey sail: "You may cheapen a thing with reference to the time required to produce it, but if the man that handles tbe machinery that does it does not get enough for the work to hold him up as a responsible citizen in tbe community, wherein does your cheapening process help him any?" Horr bad not mentioned the property most in demand in the world—-money. All these things Horr had enumerated would only bring half as much money. Legislation bad been in the interest of men owning money. Horr then put in a table giving thb prices of nine agricultural products, in* eluding wheat and cotton, prepared by the agricultural depart-nent, showing that from 1875-9 to 189J-4 the prices had not declined. Horr further proceeded to quote statistics to phow tbe increase of wealth in the United States between the years in consideration, Harvey replied! "He said that we bad increased in wealth. Nobody disputes that. Now does our increase in wealth go to show that my proposition was not true that tbe owners of money and securities are exchanging their property and absorbing yours?" Horr then went back to the question asked by Harvey as to why the increase of tbe production of silver from $iO,890,Opo j n itW, to WiffiWy) in J87£ had not affected the price, vbile a slightly less increase froiHi8i3to 18^4 had caused the price to fall 17 per cent. Hegaid; "The reason why silver did uot fall between J800 and 3373 was because of tbe enormous demand lor id in the Orient, Mulhali (pap #Qb) gives the imports to India alone from I860 to J87P »t |6')Q,o:3,QW, while from, W7Q to 188.:} she tpofe only fgp^OOO.OOO, • The, en« tire production of silver frQjn 1883 to 1870 was fS.Qfi.WnQW, and was utterly absorbed by India. al9ne,wbiie the production from lITQtQ 1S8.0 vras ?Q39,PW.9W more than lor silver had not to He s»id, tbe ew o,Y£ OQftWQ $78. Jejepiy to ttw begajd Jjsyp rnj^e B p |pp »& wantry where fe»9w§ wrlMBg the laboring me.n hays the Q. of Wt> that tiiyy have here in the * l;r ' ' "' " ' v *' BDT'ONE MOBE BAY. Great Chicago Silver Debate Nearly at an Ertd. EIGHTH MEETING OF THE TALKERS. tVMc Knnge ot Subject* Tuck led by the Two Champion*—fr/ceg of Prod act* and Labor, ltunk->, IndebtedneM of the People, Krtllure* tint! Panic), Sotnfe oi the Jinttet-4 Disputed Over—"Unit" Dol. lar Presented to tlorr by Harvey. [Copyritfiit, 189i, by Azel F. Hatch ] The two disputants In the silver debate In beginning the eighth day's discussion showed an inclination to "get together" in proposition and reply, and Instead of Harvey discussing one thing while Horr Was discussing another their argument was confined more closely to the same phase of the question. At the commencement of tht session Horr had the floor. He stated that "when you take all the human productions together with the great product known as human labor, gold has not appreciated in value since 1873, and when measured in human toil it has depreciated; that after twenty years under a gold standard in this country the farmer can purchase with the products of his farm more of the things which he needs to buy to-day, than he could in 1878. More than that, I state that when the entire products of the farm are taken into account they will bring as much money of final rederup- tion as they would have brought iti 1873." Ho then introduced as part of his caae the table compiled for the finance committee of the United States senate under the direction of Carroll D. Wright, national commissioner of labor. The table shows the cost of several classes of products, tho average wages of men who worked at all kinds of labor, from IS'50 up to 1890, and is computed on the plan of starting in 18UO with 100 as the basis. This table gives the average of all prices as follows: 1860, 100; 1S65, S16.8; 1870, 143.8; 1875, 127.6; 1880, 106.9; 18S6, 98; 1893, 93.3. Average of wages: 186), 100; 1865, 143.1; 1870, 1(13.3; 1876, 168.4; 1880, 141.6; 1885, 150.7; 1890, 158.9. Purchasing power of wages: I860, 100; 1866, «6; 1870, 114.1; 1875, 124.1; 188), 132.8; 1885,163; 1890,172.1. Proceeding to argue from these figures Horr said: "You will notice that in 1866 the prices were nominally high on account ot their being given in the cheap money used in this country at that time. In 1865 tho greenback, in which we were measuring values, was worth only 49}^ cents on the dollar. All prices had advanced when named in paper money to ai6.8. Wages had advanced to 148 1 per cent., but owing to the unusual advance in the price of products and of wages the purchasing power of wages was only 66. We resumed specie payments in 1879; by that time the high prices had fallen off; that is the nominal prices, because the measure in which they had been valued had been advancing all the while on account of the paper money which we were using as tho measure constantly appreciating in value until it finally reached par with gold. "At that time prices as compared with I860 were as 106.9 to 100, and wages were as 141.5 to 103, showing that the wage- earners-received much better pay than they received in I860. But the purchasing power of wages was I3i.8 instead of 100, Labor was better paid and men enjoyed the necessaries and comforts of life to an enormously greater degree, notwithstanding silver had at that time declined from 100 to 84.7. In 1870 the average of all prices was 148.8; wages 162,2,, and the purchasing power of greenbacks was 114.1. In 1890 prices were 92.3, wages 158.9, and their purchasing power in gold 172.1, showing that the wage earner for his day's work got one and nearly three- fourth times as much of the things he needed in 1893 as he could have goc in 1860." Horr then referred to a table presented by Harvey, compiled by Sauerbeck for a London society of statisticians. This table "showed the prices of forty-five articles in London, including silver, and made out an average decrease from 1873-87 to 18t>6-94 of about 19 per cent. Horr said the senate finance committee based the table he had quoted on 226 articles used in the United Statos. Ha said he would print as part of his remarks a list of sixty- five of the articles used in the senate committee's table. Among them are the following; Beans, bread, butter, coffee, fish, lard, pork, beef, mutton, sugar, potatoes, cotton, woolen and cotton cloths, carpets, hides, leather, coal, iron, copper, lead, nails, knives, saws, scythes, shovels, brick, silver, lumber, chairs, tables, soap and flour. Horr said It was better to select data from the United States than England. What they were after was to find out how this law (demonetization) affected tbe people here, and what would be,tbe effect of free silver here, Harvey took up the debate by quoting from Horr that the average price of wheat from 1875 to 1879 was 99.8 cents a bushel, and that corn, oats and wheat brought as much gold In tbe five years past as they brought in the five years previous to 1879, Harvey road from tb^ same table quoted by Horr showing the pripos for the years 189<M>4 inclusive, which averaged 66.0 gents per bushel for wheat, He then defended «be Sauerbeck table, say* i»g; "It shows tbe decline in prleee pf all those articles that seek the world's markets, such as our wheat and our cot' toni Tbe London price of wbeat_afJect8 the price <?f our wheat on tbe Ql tbe §snate committee table Harvey id iti compilers were "not free from e, desire $9 wake as good a showing as they pQislWy co»UJ for prices in tbe UntteU States, "When It ii fenswa that Wsvard Atkinson was one of the wen who aj> lilted Jin making jt one can judge of the b}fts that enters into it,'* Tbe senate ra, P9,rj(.p«3 mad.e Ja J.89J, whf»B it waf gup, pQa§4 prices had touched their lowest poJ»t, a»4 yet It showed a depJine in, Q( § pep cent, He a table, comparing those of committee, gauerke.pfc a,n,d. frgm 133.6 (a 9J,g by- mJQi to7§ by Bauer* JBMB to W® fr ' unit of measure, and that it be called a dollar. Horr Was quoted a? replying that the idea was "so nbsurrt that I can hardly treat it soberly." Harvay said the same reply would do for Horr's idea. In conclusion Harvey said: "The gold standard men are constantly pointing to the gold dollar as being worth 100 cents as measured in itself. It is a self-evident proposition, as measured in itself it is worth 100 cents." Horr said Harvey had not quote! the Tribune reply fairly, only giving part thereof. He said he was replying to a man who did not believe in either gold ot silver as money, but in "flat" money— the old greenback idea. What he (Horr) Wrote about his correspondent's theories being absurd was hot in reference to his measure of value, but to his whole scheme —fiat money. Here Horr charged Hatvcy with being anarchistic and socialistic, Harvey indignantly repudiated the charge. Horr then took up the subject of banks, prefacing it it with the declaration that no country in the World had been as prosperous as the United States since 1878. Banks, he said, when well organized, were a blessing to every community In which they wete located. By their aid a dollar did more than twenty dollars used to do. By their aid exchanges were made with the use of very little money. Less than five per cent, of exchanges in civilized countries was made with money. He had seen that fact established in the Now York Clearing House. Harvey in replying referred to his estimate of tho normal supply of money ($4,800,000,000) needed in the United States, and now to show the difference between "having the money in existence and having tho banks supply it," ho presented a table of failures (Dun & Co.'s), showing the number per year and amount of liabilities from 1857 to 1894 inclusive. Of the table ho said: "It shows that during the years of the war, when there was plenty of money, making about $40 per capita, the cumber of business failures was reduced to a minimum. See how the contraction of the currency, beginning in 1866, increased the failures. Follow it along down the years to 1894, and note its ravages as demonetization and bank were substituted for real money. Notice credit, with their terrible tax on the people, the failures prior to 18 W, when bank credit was supplying tiso people with money. Look at its terrible ravages in the last ten years; 115.0JJ business concerns have gone into bankruptcy. I do not mean to say that all these lallures are to be attributed to this cause, but I do mean to say that the credit system of money, with its tax of J 230,000,000 annually, will account for every dollar Involved In those failures." Pausing long enough to introduce as part of the dlcusslon a table on pages 186 to 194, American Statistical association publication, vol. II, date189J-91, giving the total business population of the United States and the total number of business firms dropping out of business, Harvey gave figures showing the number of railways, July 20, 1893, in the hands of receivers, the increase of the number of tenant farmers between 1880 and IbW), and said that in 1880 25 63 per cent, and in 1894 84.13 per cent, of the farms were cultivated by tenants; also a census bulletin giving the number of tenant; families in New York city and immediately surrounding municipalities at 81.51 per cent, and this he charged to the financial legislation he was opposing. Horr returned to the bank question and admitted that the quantity of gold in the world had not Increased as fast as the business of the world, but methods had been devised by which $100 ia gold would do now as much business as $2,000 used to do. This diminished the demand for the actual metal. He illustrated this by comparing the work done by water power with one mill on a stream and an undershot wheel; and that done by mills all along the stream at successive falls, using turbine wheels. Turning to the subject of debt he said Harvey based "his new philosophy entirely upon the theory that tbe people of the world are mostly in debt. It does not occur to him that the debtors 'and creditors, when you speak of sums of indebtedness, are always precisely the same." Harvey replied to the mill argument by saying: "Money is a stream. Suppose that along that stream manufactories bad been erected, and all had adjusted themselves to the quantity of water, and suddenly one-half of that water is taken out of the stream, what is the effect? Let me draw another illustration from tbe gentleman's figure: Suppose we were by laws to give rights to men living along the banks of that stream of water, to store 1C away, draw It out and put it in great reservoirs, and rent it to the manufactories and business houses along that stream that had adjusted themselves to the use of it, requiring them to pay a toll for the use of that water"-then you would have our present banking system," Harvey then PUP in a table giving homicidal statistics of the country from 18S3 to )8W inclusive, showing that they in" creased from 1,467 to 5,906; another table showing the immigration from 1883 to 1894 inclusive; another giving tbe number of inmates of penitentiaries, jails, and insane asylums, and the number of sul- ciaes, issu and 18DO, and the number of suicides for each year from 1889 to 1894 In- olusive^aii showing a great increase. Commenting thereon be said history told us that all republics had fallen, and this would fall unless we taught ourselves to dlagnw national disease. When by a false money measure tbe people we deprived of their property, monarchy becomes a necessity, Horr took up tbe table of failures Harvey bad put in, He referred to 1857 and J898j the forper year was one of fearful pa»i«, W^weretbeBi according to Har» vey, enad9»bte standard bas} S , j R 1893 we wgre en a, gold basis, gag that, according to Harvey, WAS the cause of tbe H«rr said one pause of tbe latter panic tbe frog $i|y,§F'propaganda, The ;. '""— te 1§S7 iJnQJWited $9 |19 .„ doub^ standard, The per 88 u»dfp a gold Thursday's debate » Qt jTeiui i»ewer.94 thai d%y, ,|S^3?SB8fi | 5? wjs iTiajS'.tiwigf, ices are lower prays Jfe af mam HflKnWanlffeoiLtt^ 000,100.003—n* the government, but in*people, and gave item? from the Bdnkeffc* Magazine, including state, municipal an<i fallWny bonds, mortgages of vafioISs kinds, and bank, etc., loans and dlsConntSi ''^ aggregating $19,000,000,000, and said the balance could be easily figured as "short time" debts, which Horr himself said were vastly greater than long time debts. Harvey then referred to Hofr's con ten* tion that falling prices were the result of improved facilities for production, and Bald improved facilities did not lower prices. It waa the supply produced and the demand for it that regulated prices. To illustrate it he said: "Suppose a widow owning a farm receives the voluntary assistance of her neighbors to false and harvest her wheat crop, will her wheat be worth any less than the price fixed by the quantity of wheab in existence known to traders, and tho estimated demand for it." Continuing he said thut if the whole corn crop of this country, except Iowa, were destroyed, the price of the Iowa crop would not be governed by the cost of production, and so on. If Improved facilities resulted in an oversupply of anything the price Would fall. It Was all supply and demand; "the cost of production has nothing to do with with it.'* But if it be said that improved facilities, always result in lower prices, then sucb- facilities are balng applied to all pro* ducts Including gold and silver. "And if it increases production, both in the things to be measured and the product in which they are measure.], tho exchangeable- , value of the two would remain substantially unchanged." Horr attacked the tho theory that the business of the country depends on the> circulation per capita, and presented a table showing the per capita for all the leading nations of the world, and said that France had $86.81 per capita, but heir bank system was nothing to compare with that of Great Britain; Germany only had $13.56, and her greatest writer said. she was crippled for want of banks; Great Britain had $tf0.41, but business was- readily done because of her banking system; we had 2602 and there were hundreds of millions of money lying idle because there was nobody to use it; Sweden had but 92.71 and there was no complaint of scarcity of money there. Banks did not make money In panic- times, nor a great deal when interest is- high; it was when business was active,, interest low and deposits increasing. A. great part of the money in this country could not be used without banks. Money was deposited iu banks so that it- could be ba used in business. "The banks pay interest to depositors in most instances, and they make the money of depositors earn an enormous sum, millions upon millions each year, that they would never get a cent for but for the banks investing it and paying them interest on these deposits. They can't pay interest on deposits if they don't get some* interest themselves." Harvey then took the floor and commented on the claim that the wages of labor had increased. He said there were two classes of labor—one that produced something and sold it itself, and one that- sold its services to somebody else. In the* first class was the farmer, the village- tanner, the cobbler, etc. The other class was called wage-earners and was divided into two groups—organized and unorganized; the last included store clerks, office-' , ' help, etc., and owing to the gold start— 'y dard. Store clerks, for instance, were- getting $5 and $7 per week, where in 3873- they got $12 and $15. In this group- o£ laborers the reduction in wages had been^ carried to the point of bare subsistence,, and in many Instances beyond that. • Organized labor, however, bought oafc /, the matter with its employers and either / .gained its point or infl.iotei such an in,- ~ g jury as to make it feared In/therfutnree~~ l '~~T*/'* ! It this way organization had prevented' "l '- $ wages from declining. Such organiza- ;.'lion would exist and had a right to exist, but our civilization should make it' un— , necessary. , ' ''' Horr then attacked the statement? inn - ' the "School" that foreigners own real-. ? estate, personal property, bonds,,, stocks and mortgages in the United States to the amount of ten thousand million dollars. He said there- was not a shadow of authority for that' '/ statement, and explained apropos of the- : ;; 810,000,000,000 debt matter that the "short time" debts he referred to were ; j. those accumulating every day in wagea^, ''^* salaries, etc. %,; Harvey, resuming his discussion of tfte< ' wages of labor, read a letter from Thomas- -v I. Kldd, general secretary of the Machine- ••-•' Wood Workers'union, in which it was- • ' ^ stated that for work in Omaha in 1880> >' :; : 'i carpenters got $9.75 per day,-while-they "v^| average now was less than ?a. In Chi-- "$ oago wages bad fallen from 53.75 to $1,75 <'• ^ and less. Kidd adds that what the A'4 laborer saves by cheaper clothes, etc., is, more than offset by rent alone and "then,, again, the American mechanic is a greater consumer than he was thirty years ago; Articles that were luxuries then are almost indispensable to his health and comfort now," Harvey gave the report of $ne» labor commission for )890 to show that ip 67 pig iron establishments the men ' averaged $J 6} per day, working only days a year. Referring to tenancy be said he in a similar debate to this take tb«- flrmative of the proposjtipn. twenty million acres of land in United States to-day 1? owned by Kilsh lords and titled nobility, and English land tenantry has to that. tent been already introduced into, 1 country," Hprr resumed tbe W.QQQjQOfyW matter. He said that In tbe case of ; gages Harvey had largely the amount, One series of A 3og@n;> wore mortgages opuld be wiped ond tbe. payment of the grit IB the, fierie,p,», ; ] attacked other items in tbe list given.' Harvey and finally feBQcfeed, pff" Qf vey's aggregate ab,Q»t f§!%9?pr cording to bis (Horr's) flg»re|, Hftrwy ini^pjj tb&S ,bJ WftlJ tbe. Indebtedness ef the day's dflwte b»a psefeet the wsrd, 'JBtfte the^ . ex-

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