The Algona Republican from Algona, Iowa on August 14, 1895 · Page 7
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The Algona Republican from Algona, Iowa · Page 7

Algona, Iowa
Issue Date:
Wednesday, August 14, 1895
Page 7
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WEWE8IJAT, AUOUSt RATIOB Principal Subject of the talk, Fiftl "COIN" STAfES HIS CASE 6XACTLV Fife What ift His ¥ie* is the Operation «tf tiu |)6tli>l£-StAiicia*d SjrStfcm— ttotf Ho.cli LnbOt to lie tlic iiesfc Standard «t V«lu« «&«i Sita*UH'« Gold *hftt ^VflJ-, Shtttrlnt ft i>*flM>elfttlo(H »r of the ireltdw .iietui, a. tie Vlett* tlife Cflfie. [Copyright 189"), by Azel F. Hntc.h ] ^The fifth day of the Harvey-Hot-r debate began with the chairman, Judizt Miller, on the Uoor. He simply requested the audience to respect the rights of tlit debaters, there having been on the pan of a portion of the audience an incline tion to interrupt occasionally. Horr the!, began the debate by declaring that all attempts to fix the ratio between sllvoi and gold had been failures. A difference between the legal and commercial ratio; of % of 1 per cent had been sufficient tc drive the dearer metal out of any civiiiz > ' country. It had been so in this countiy Gold was the dearer money up to 18 iA and it left us; silver was the dearer aitoi 1884 and it left us, so that in 1*53 congresi had to pass a law making the sinal'iot silver coins much less silver. "Coin" had said ih his book that Franco- had bid for our silver by establishing u higher ratio therefor, but France had made that ratio—15^ to 1-in 18J3 when our ratio was Ib to 1 and she got no sllvei' from Us up to )834. Ho gave a review ol the history of tho ratio of Franco, ami said that gold had been made the standard of the whole civilized world because it was believed to be more stable in value than sliver and for other less important reasons. Harvey si>id that when he replied to the above his answer would be complete, but he dessired to talk further about the de- monetization act. He quoted the Mor- rlll letter read by Horr at tho previous debate. In Harvey's quotation Morrlll says: "None [silver dollars] been coined for forty years," ana. Harvey referred to the mint report showing thi-.t Morrlll was mistaken, there having boen several millions of silver dollars coined in the forty years prior to 1873. Harvey ( Imputed falsehood to Morrill because hejwas a bank stockholder and the truth would not have served Merrill's interests. >Eorr explained that Morrill was not writing an essay on the number of silver dollars coined iu that time, but denying the talk of fraud in the passage of this demonetization act; there had been only 8 000,000 of them coined while tho amount of gold was several hundred millions, said Horr: "Senator Morrill simply used the expression 'There were none coined and Mr. Harvey draws the conclusion that because that is not accurately true, bo cannot tell tho truth aboui; anything else." , , He then went on: " Doctor Lindenuan gives the valuo of the silver dollar each year from 1834 to 1870 in the Census Report. According to that table, at no time was tho silver dollar between 1894 and 1876 worth less'than.100.2 cents, the highest was in 1859 when in was worth 105;S2. This "Coin" calls a slight varia- Harvey then began the discussion of bimetallism and said: "Scientific bimetal- ism is this: ','1. Free and unlimited coinage of both gold and silver; these two metals to constitute the primary or redemption money ot the government. "&. That silver dollars of 371^ grains of pure silver (with us) to be tne unit of value, and gold to be coined into money at a ratio to be changed if necessary from time to time if the commercial parity to the legal ratio shall be affected by the action of foreign countries. "8. The money coined from both metals to be legal tender in the payment of all debts. . "4. The option as to which of the two moneys is to be paid in the liquidation of the debt to rest with the debtor, and tho government also to exercise that option when desirable in paying out redemption money. "All of these conditions are necessary. Like any useful mechanical construction all the parts are necessary. First, as to unlimited coinage: When the mints are open to unlimited coinage of the two metals an unlimited demand is created for them. The quantity is limited. When these two metals seek a market they find a demand for their use in the artia and manufactures, which is limited. Ine eurplus finds an unlimited market at the mlntB to be coined Into money, the object for which all other produces seek the market. They thus have an unlimited market, as the mints are open to all that comes. It Is a question of supply and de- m "With a limited supply ana unlimited demand, what etops their value rising? It is this; The law says, 'We 871& grains pure silver ( and grams pure gold, respeo lively, dollars, and confer upon functions" "which make coin 83.8 into these coins for them a permanent and equal demand.' When this is tbe law people will not take less for their silver and gold, the quantities above named, than a dollar in current mpney, for they have the right to have It coined Into dollars.' "This unlimited demand for the two, 'metals existed in all the world at ratios one to the other up to im when England closed her mints to eliver, Tbe de- wand thus made fixed tbe comperolai value of the two metals at tbe ratio 8*ed bylaw, England closing ber mints baa practically no effect, It was designed to lo so and was tbe beginning of tbe move,' ment intended to Hrnlt tbe quantity of primary money to one of the metals and correspondingly deprease tbe value of the other metal. . "j now roaXe a. part of my remarks an official table tateen from, page joa of complied iftws and poinage statistiof, an official document from Washington, g the poreroeroial ratio rt tlw two for PW years, te wblpb I have add» commercial rftWo fpy W^i» •prow It will be seen tbftt under tbe of unlimited 90lasge up, to W? » between tbe two, mesate was ptauj' ; at t>h° legal W*M Q - ^ 9 ^ youp l^ i down tbese eslawui <w»& s° e «W tho wavwiwlal rftStefeSH* P 9 ^ fteconnt in this debate. This ot»e fact I idmitted bf C6ia and disputed by no one: All the civilized fiations of the world hate ceased the free coinage of silver upon any ratio. Silver today has no free coinage in any country where gold is the standard, and only in such countries as are using silrer as the unit and measure of Value. It matters little how such fl state of affairs has been established since it is the existing fact. Silver is cheap. We both agree to that. "No coins Which are of less Value than the market values of the metals5n them Would indicate are ever treated as the measure of ultimate redemption, her ever passed current at their face value, except they are redeemable in money which is worth as much coined as un- coined. NoW 'Coin' in his 'Financial School' really admits that the tatio between the two metals must always be determined by the actual value of the metals in the markets of tho world, and ignores the doctrine of the ratio of 16 tol being possible at the present day. On page 111 'Coin' says! 'We express values in dollars, the unit of our monetary system. That unit is the gold dollar of 8B.2 grains of pure gold, or 2:-.8 grains of standard gold. If wo were to cut this amount in two, and make D.O grains a unit or a dollar we would thereby double the value of all the property ih the United States except debts.' "Is tiot that statement wisdom for you ih chunks? What a head that boy must haVe. Precisely such another proposition Would bei Wo measure cloth in this country, legally, with a yard stick thirty-six inches long. It we were to cut the yard stick in two and declare by law that eighteen inches shnll hereafter be a yard we would thereby double the amount of cloth in the United States. Holy Moses 1 What a philosopher we have here. Then cut it in two again and the cloth would be quadrupled. If tho boy had said that by cutting the gold dollar into two pieces and then changing our unit or dollar so that it should be only half as valuable as It is now We would double the nominal Valuo of all the property in the world, but Would not affect its actual value in the least, he would have told tho truth. "Before Mr. Harvey finishes his book he discloses what he really meant by bimetallism. We have it here in bis own language, and it is in this book that I find the principles which I am called upon in this debate to combat. The author says: 'The objection to independent bimetallism is that the parity between the two metals cannot be maintained at our ratio ot 16 to 1, that is, the cold—23.2 grains—in the gold dollar will be worth more than the silver—SVlJi gralns-ln the silver dollar; we have twice changed the quantity of gold in the gold dollar, each time making it less. If the commercial value of 23 S grains of gold is worth more than tho commercial value of 371J^ grains of pure sliver then reduos to &) grains, 21, «0 grains of less, if necessary, to put the two at a ratio where the practical effect of free coinage, when once set to working again, will demonstrate that the ratio is at its natural point and parity easily obtained.' "And then again on page 143 he says: 'with silver remonetizsd and a just and equitable standard of values we can, it! necessary by act of congress, reduce tho number of grains in a gold dollar till it is of tho same value as the silver dollar. We can legislate the premium out of gold. 1 Now then, what becomes of his ratio of ..!<* to 1?" Harvey'? reply was'as follows: "Mr. Horr' alludes to something that I have, said before and. then adds, 'Cut tho yard stick half in two and it will make twice as many yards of cloth in the world.' Now, Mr. Horr, let me tell you what you people did in 1873. You doubled the length of the yard stick. For instance, let me illustrate it. Suppose one-half of the gold in the world were destroyed today beyond recovery, would not the gold dollars that were left be twice as valuable as they were before? Mr. Horr is not a bad pupil and shakes his head. Let me illustrate it in another way that every farmer in this country will understand. Suppose that one-half of the wheat in the world today were de stroyed beyond recovery. Mr. Horr, would not wheat on the Chicago market tomorrow be about double in value what it is today? You .cannot escape that proposition, and it does not require a man to be a farmer to understand the illustration and any man who is a business man will understand the gold illustration. "So that when you destroyed one-half tha redemption money in 187S you doubled the value of the money that was left. You doubled the yard stick. You can see no harm in destroying the price of a man's property, cutting the price of his property half in two; you shut your eyes to that. But your eyes are wide open when any man proposes to even up with you in your eutUng-in»half process by proposing to cut the gold dollar half in two. We don't wish'-to do either. We wish to put back In the coinage system the money that you demonetized In 1873." Then referring to the table of ratios from 1687 to 1894 he said the whole of the variation of said ratio when "the world practically bad bimetallism" was made by the cost of exchange, "Itia possible," Bald Horr, in reply, "that my friend Harvey believes it when be savs the act of 1873 cut the price of the property of the world In two, atd * K "* fcttto through nfeCnattdal devices ate coft* polled to do tho work formerly ddnebf human hands, three results should follow: The product should be cheftpeftea for the consumers of the world, the wages of the men Who still labor in that production should be increased, and the profits of the promote* of the enterprise, or the Inventor of tha improvement, should become greater." , Harvey rejoined: "Air. Horr, we do not Intend to let you before the American people cloak yourself behind the laboring mnn. Thero have been free schools in this country for many years, and you are not going to fool the laboring men of this country. Mr. Horr ask* me about prices, why they did not drop suddenly 60 per cent, in 1478 when silver was demouetUedi The reply to that is this; We were not then on a specie basis. We began again In 1879; the demand for gold was not thrown oh it to answer the entire purpose of primary money Until 1879, and then it was cushioned in this country by the disputed position of silver. "He soys my illustration about half the gold being destroyed Is not like the Wheat if one-half of that were suddenly destroyed, Iu this whole argument you oan apply one safe principle, and that is that supply ahd demand regulate values." Referring to the table of ratios again Harvey said that for 200 years there was a practical parity between the two motals. Said Horr, when Harvey sat down: "My friend Harvey says that ho is not going to permit me to stand behind tho laboring men, or hide behind them, or words to that effect. How are you going to stop me from standing where I have a mind to? 1 say I oppose this whole scheme because it will injure every man who lives upon wages in tho United States." Horr then went into a dissertation on the origin ot value, his conclusion being that when gold and silver were first used to effect exchanges the cost in human labor of producing them measured their values. The 111311 who advocated free silver left "out UL the question the great human product of labor and the manner in which it will be affected by the legislation that they propose. Their whole plan seems to be to enable people who have run into debt to pay their debts .without returning full value for what they have received." But. said Horr, the creditors of the country outnumbered the debtors five to one. Every man who had worked one hour of his d'<y's work was a creditor. Harvey would not take up this subject yet, but would prove when he got to it, he said, that Horr was wrong about the creditors outnumbering the debtors. He proceeded to show when Germany and France demonetized silver, in 1873 and 1874 he B ild, and called attention to the table of ratios to show that it was just then that tho price of silver began to fall, his conclusions being that for 200 years under bimetallism there was parity and in 22 years under the gold standard total destruction of parity. Another table was here produced show- injt the annual price at London of silver from 1833 to 1«94 and the period from 1873 to 1804 when silver fell so greatly was marked on the table "Demonetlz ition." "We have relatively now only half as much primary money in existence aa in 1873 and of course silver is only worth half us much." He then asked: Has silver declined since 1873 by reason of overproduction? and presented a table giving the production of both metals each year or period of years from 1545 to 1891 in kilos, the ratio of gold to silver iu weight and in value. From, this he argued that: "The varying supply of tbe two metals prior to 1873 never had any effect in changing their commeTcial parity from the legal ratio fixed." <• Horr said: "Brother Harvey omits this one important thing. You may make two standards by law, but the peo pie will discard one and use the other. We necessarily are compelled to do busl- SCIENCE OF MONEY, s, cavalry hott&s 1 , ' 6* ceftftra Harvey's Talk with Subject at His Horr. SiXth ! on y SOME MISTAKES IN OOIfi'S SCHOOL Allegi-d by Clio Gold ClifUnpiOP, Who 1)6- cllne* to UB tiltn'.ted Ift Ut* l>lta* ot Argument »o That ot His Opponent Sn "Scientific Bimetallism," Which i» E*. plained HI Length— Htltf foluts from the DiiyV I)iscu.«§ion». (CoprrUi.t 189'., by Azel F. Hatch.] The sixth session of the money debate began with Harvey on the floor, and he proceaded to make a statement reviewing from his standpoint the value of the fifth day's debate. He claimed that every material proposition he was contending for had been strengthened by what had boon brought out. Horr then proceeded With the discussion. He saidi "On yesterday Mr. Harvey stated that I had found but ono error in the statements in his book, and he defied me to call attention to any other mistake that he had made. The mistakes that arc niado iu Mr. Harvey's book are, many of them, not mistakes as to the words that he uses, but misleading inferences from positions which he takes. I will now in my opening remarks call some attention to what I mean. In your book, Mr. Harvey, you say: 'It is estimated by all men of judgment who have given practical attention to minin? that the silver now in existence has cost not less than ?a par ounc3, and many put it much higher.' You will find that in 'Coin's' book, pajJ 7 ± l assort that silver has not cost that much for production because, silver has been constantly increasing in production at a low price, running from SI.2) an ounce down to 67 cants an ounce, and the people of the world naver keep constantly producing an article at so much less than it costs them to produce it." Horr said that if "Coin" was correct the silver men in three years lost &i3G,- 000,000. He didn't believe that men would continue at a business in which they lost nearly 883,003,000 a year. Ho then proceeded: "Again, Mr. Harvey says ou page 33 of his book: There is in the world now, according to the report of the director of our mint, $3,7*7,018,869 in gold and S3,623,571,316 in silver.' The mint director didn't give that as tho amount of silver and gold in the world at all. The director of the mint gave simply the amount of coin supposed to be then in existence. Mulhall, whom you refer to as good authority, gives the stock of gold coin and bullion in 1890 at six thousand million dollars, and the amount of silver at fibout six thousand million dollars. "Coin tells us on page 58: 'We hava in tho United States in round flpure §1,600,- OOO.OW of all Jsindslof money.' The Statistical Abstract of the United State=, page 3), says: 'Tho total umour.t isJ2,- 423,000,000.' That gives one amount, you give another. You tell us, page 53: 'Wo are paying England gfcOO.000,000 annually in gold in the payment of interest on our bonds, national and private bonds owned by her people.' 1 deny it and defy any proof that will show that we owe all the countries of Europe combined that much; that is, bonds that would require that much of interest to b3 sent abroad. You state that the indebtedness of the United States is forty thousand million dollars; that is, the people of this country, if that be true, owe nearly two-thirds as much as all the property in the United States is worth. I brand such a statement simply as false." Harvey on taking the floor again said he>would prove in the proper place that silver cost what he said it cost and foreshadowed that he was going to count m its cost all that had ever been spent pros ness with ono or the other unless the value happens to be precisely the same, BO that the measure becomes one and identical." Harvey referred to the table of production of gold and silver to prove that iu the time it covers, 3^8 years, the ratio between tho quantity ot the two metals produced fluctuated from 56 to 1 to 4 to 1, while the "commercial ratio hung tenaciously to tho legal ratio." Horr declared that gold had depreciated in value—5J-per cent in less than 100 years. "How do I know that gold is cheaper than it was in 1873? I will tell The rate of wages, the amount of for a certain you. that prices immediately, as they roust have done If their statement is true, dropped fifty rer cent, You destroy one»half the wheat In tbe world and tbe chances are that you will Increase the value of wheat probably four times—snob is tbe estimate of political economist!?} but wheat Is ao article that people eat to live, it is all consumed from year to year, or after a short time, Gold hai been' aqowmulatln? lor and K yp» ^ouid destroy tbe> pr> mary n»e»ey quality of half the gold in tbe world yo« would not change tbe price of the metal one-half, AS soon as the Drice would so UP there is an enormous K UW away all over the entire world tbat if net being u sed lor money purposes, that would at 1 onoe ^efe tbe channels be coined into ittoney an4 take t»e p) pi tbe money tba/t &ad been destroyefl.. "Wbflt 'Qol»' is really after • • • "- —IB BSl'UliO,^, Qt gold that a man can get number of hours' work, tells me whether gold has decreased In price or not. lean get today twice as much gold for a day's work following the plow as I did iu 1849? Wages are 70 percent higher, paid in gold, for the same amount of work than in 1880. Has not gold depreciated then when you measure it with the great commodity of human toil?'' 'VHaryey replied; "Mr, Horr says ; that everything has been cheapened, including gold. To say that gold and products cheapen simultaneously is a financial contradiction. You buy gold by exchanging other property for it, ' When ic takes more property to buy gold than formerly, gold has risen. "With us now the price of services 01 property means the gold dollar or Its equivalent, ^rice has a definite moaning, It is gold that property and labor is bemg priced in, it is not priced in labor, and the average human intellect will bave to be reduced a little lower than it is. now, before Mr, Horr can toll tbe people out on » Jim> and chop tbe limb off and mangle tnem any more than they are now mangled, fte Is trying to lead you off on » theory that bap no practical ap plication as a monetary unit." Here the debate ended for the flay- b* rtW this count adopting 4 ' would reduce #t one Trtw 9t to* mon y pne»half, « »» Wedding Gifts, hope," said the expectant bride, my friends will remember my fondness |or fine out glass and dower mo plentifully with 16 on my wedding day, J think it is ono of the few tbjnga in this w.grld that are perfectly beautiful- X n° v ^r tireoflyoklngatU." . "Pon't make such a» injudicious wish as that," s«U1 her wiser friend, who had "been there" and knew- "You cannot hope to pscape the f»te of all young ried ueoplo in having oarplpss and J to that yo^ waj)t *Q ol » & 6 °, u ' event, gynduoiy iMwv "'&*«»: vft Umm&m pecting or digging for it, Iwhether profitably or not. Replying to Horr's comments as to the quantity of gold and silver in the world he said: "When he refers to the amount of gold and silver in the world he omits to say that my statistics gave the amount of gold and silver available for use as money. Its quantity for use as money is the subject; we are interested in." He then produced a table showing the world's production of gold and silver for each year from 1849 to 1893, and for groups of years including the period from 179'i to 1848 inclusive. The grand total was, gold, *5,663,216,003; sliver (coining value) $5,077,529,000. It showed that the silver produced in 1S7.J was (coining value) 8(55,^53.000; that in 1873 it was $81,800,000, and that, generally increasing each year, it went ou until the produciion for 1893 was $196,459,003. The figures are for the whole world, and are official. Tho argument Harvey male on tnis table was; "Heie we see that from 1793 to 1800 there was §3.35 in silver produced to $1 in Kold, or u/ quantity ratio—ounce for ounce—if about fifty of silver to one And yet there was no fluctuation oi tho commercial with the legal ratio For 3S8 years prior to 1873, as far back ns we have statitics that are undisputed, the change in the relative) quantity of relative production had no effect on tbelr relative commercial value. But in twenty-two years demonetization has revolutionized the metallic currency of the world." Harvey then challenged Horr to assign uny other reason than overproduction for the break in the commercial parity of the yo metals. Referring to "scientific bimetallism" ho recapitulated his statement of the fifth session, and added: "Excepting in tha. nnit, tbera should be no discrimination between tbe two metals as they stand before tbe law, The rlgbfc to make a pon* tract to be liquidated In any specific property sbould not apply to money, Ml such poatrao'ts, when made payable in money t should call for 'lawful money.' TO permit a raid to be made upon either BOW OP lUye.r is to permit individuals or comb> nations of men to dictate to the government what should be legal tender money, !j?be government U the oreator of mosey. • the creator should regulate that 33, TO make debts payaoie on e to the exclusion of tbe other IB Jo greater demand for tbe p»e and t>o .„ ft right to promote bis eelftsh in* 6 .?' atj tbe espenee of the common g,°w ie,j§ with that wMeb *»? la " w ° re ' tbe Benefit of society." io rsply. resumed bis i'JO.OCO . sizja tmd qualities. And the „ entered the market to 1 ge8 these h'0¥9as. Horses should advance in value. Jot, the kind of horses desired but also other horses upon which there wouUl be a demand to take the place of horses sold to the government. Tho government can create a demand for a commodity. 1 Now tlntt answer has misled thousands cf honest nntl unthinking people. "You used this illustration to teach that froo coinage would create an unlimited demand 'for silver and increasn its value in the markets of the world. The horses would be bought, kept, and used by tho government; and the price of them would be paid to those who sold them, in money. Under such coinage as you advocate silver would to received by tho government, coined, and then, in effect, returned to the owner again. He might not get tho same dollars made from the identical silver which he took to the mint, but he would get those coined from Filver received and treated precisely as his was, so that he would practically gel back tho same thing. The only honest connection possible between your illustration and the truth would depend upon tho government's branding each horse and returning him, or another horse of the same class which had been treated and branded in tho same %vay, to the man who presented the horso for branding. Now, What influence would that have on the pi'ico of the horsos ? It would not increase tho consumption nor would it affect the supply. "Another Itom: Tho average price of wheat, as given on paga 103 of 'Coin's School,'was 83 contain .18'Jl. Tho Statistical Abstract gives the New York price SLU'J in 1391, and the average price iu Chicago in 1S91 was 97 cents. If you arc teaching the people the truth, explain this discrepancy. Again: In 1893, you stato, tho corn crop of Illinois was 16'J,- 000,030, which you teach to the people governed the price of corn in the United States that year, whereas the product of corn that year In the United States was 1,619,000,000 of bushels. Now what I. want is, Brother Harvey, that you should tell us how that little tail in Illinois corn crop wagged tho whole dog in the United Statss. In another portion of your book you state, at least by implication, that »jho farmer's products will not buy as much of all kinds of commodities, except labor, as in 1873. You do this on pages Wl and 13.3 of Coin 1 < School. That statement is misleading and untrue. Tho farmers'products i alien aa a whole will buy as many things that the farmers need 'and use as the same product?, all taken together, would ' have bought in 1873." In reply Harvey said: "When ho called your attention to tho illustration iu the •'School" of the government entering the market for horses Mr. Horr should have thought how the government fixes the price on gold. You take a certain quantity of gold to the United States mint and it is coined and given, back to you iu so much money. The price of geld as money is fixed. Now, we ask the same thing for silver, that's all. Now I proceed with the argument of what is scientific bimetallism. The option of the debtor to pay in either metal is a vital principle. Unlimited free coinage at the mints guarantees a substantial parity. But if, by reason of supply or a corner ou ono of the metals or from any other reason one of the metals is enhanced in value, tho debtor exercises his option to pay in the other motal and this transfers the demand from the dearer metal to tho cheaper, metal." ; Here Harvey, quoted the Chicago Tri bune of January, 1878, in which an editorial takes direct ground against a single standard for the reason that the debtor should bo provided with an option as explained by Harvey. Harvey enumerated two kinds of money in use—one was "primary," the other "representative." Primary money was the measure of values. Ha proceeded: "When we have gold as real money, as we have now, our representative money is tied to it as the tail of a kite Is fastened to a kite. We make it as good as gold only by fastening it to gold. Hence we now hear of a 53- cent silver dollar. Why? Because silver is being measured in gold, and so is all your property. We have 69-cent wheat and 5-oent cotton, and this relative decline is the same with all other property where its value is measured in the gold markets of the world, not affected by trust causes or a new use that has increased its demand. What reduced the prices was taking away Jone-half the real money. What will put it back is to restore that half of the money. Bear in mind one thing through this whole argument: that supply and demand regulate the value of money, the same as of all other property," Horr proceeded "to take up the question as to why the people of the civiliz3d world refuse to adopt Mr. Harvey's plan. I admit it, that the nations that first demonetized silver did so bepause they considered the mineral unstable, variable in price, and that afterwards the element of cheapness came in. The nations which 'acted later did it because silver was cheapening all the time, as an additional reason. In your book and yesterday in every statement you made you used the term that if 'the mints of tbe world' would give free and unlimited coinage to silver on a certain ratio, It could be maintained, I have not denied that. Tbe question we are discussing is after the entire civilized world has refused to use silver as money of final redemption, and still refuses to use it, can the United States single, banded and alone afford to put Itself upon a silver basis?" Horr then adopted In bis remarks •'Coin's" table of the gold and pllver production of the world, but only that part from 1*71 to 1893 inclusive, and with the wlnt report of the production for 1898 and I89i added, showing a pretty steady inerease o( production o* gold and a production of silver (aoinlng value) of $7l,§'J3,ojo in 1874, inQreasi»g steadily to $314,881,000 in jS9i, The gold production begins »t ?9Q,< yso.ooQ } a }8j* and rises to 1181,510,000 in 188*. fterr remark^! "Now this table shows, that since i&74 tbe production of eilvep b&s been ponstafltly OB the increase, Gold bag i»ere»§e<i since W7H fromfW,- 75,9,OQQ wortn in ono year to $181,519, WQ- a,bo»t double, Silyer in those game Jte r yw YisiQnw 'law of 'i "for, silver by free pow** "el y$ui b «°,Jsj ystti wbomm; veu uubwtfontnelaf-arAfi, fw.f two : prices were a's nigh ifi tSaltfotntft 'St were with us. Mexico has fi& p«p«f >y, and yet wheat is worth them , . per bushel in silvar, and f» equity .•$ lent of our gold pricj foir w.?*,6 hare, '? whero we have paper money reproftint "•'Anyone who denies the propositioft that primary or real money alone is tl>« measure of values is asked to consider this: With relative production of silver to gold since 1873 not accounting lot tt» decline in silver since that year, why isi* that silver is Worth only 60 cents new.« compared with 100 cents in (873? And, « a change of our money measure to <ft* gold standard has reduced tho price tf Silver 53 per cent., what reason is th«B that it Would not exert a similar inB*~ ence on other property?" Horr's rejoinder wns: "Any busioftM man will only heed to look at the tafefe of production of silver and gold since 1173 to be able to ascertain that the law Whldi. I partially illustrated yesterday operas in reference to silver as well as in reference to every other commodity. It is cheaper because the demand and the supply are iu such relations to each other that it makes it cheaper, just as whe*i has been cheaper, and for the same re>r son. • "Prices arc not governed or coutrollcs by the amount of primary money in anr country or in tho wholo world, so far as F know. Why, when we passed the law of 18T3 there was at that timo only about one hundred thirty-flvo millions of gold in the country—all the primary money we had. It his doctrine is true prices should have been doubled instantly. Ah, but hero is tho trouble with your mathematics. If your doctrine is true every product in tins country should have boen reduced in price by this cheapening of silver." Harvey said: "Silver is not now primary money," and Horr went on: "Silver Is not primary money, and under his doctrine, because primary money has been, reduced in that way one-half, all prices should be reduced one-half. Have they been? Has corn depreciated that wayf Has pork depreciated? Has I cattle depreciated that way? Over ono-hatt of the farm products of the United States are as high now as they were in 1873, a fact which oould not b« true if his doctrine as to tho appreciation of the measure of value is true; price* would necessarily be split in tw.o. No\r the difficulty is, articles are cheapened bjp tho processes of production. The price of an article is always fixed by the absolute cost of production—to the concern producing it, which does it at tho highest price at which i- oan stay in the business after the price .ixed. "For instance, wo had boen paying years ago $1 u pound, and a good deal more, for aluminium. It used to cost that in actual work in expense to get a pound of it. Now aluminium is without limit in tho crust of the earth almost. It used to cost so much to separate it that ifc was worth more than gold. Now we have been cheapening the production of aluminium until it is down to perhaps 40 or 45 cents a pound. Now mark—when, some person (and it will be done) shall discover a method of reducing aluuiia.- inm so that it can be made for 10 coats.a pound the price of aluminium will notgtt down to 10 cents a pound at first, or anywhere near it. Tho man making the discovery will hold the price up as high ae he can keep it, and tnat is always at tl»« highest point that it costs any of 6fee men who still stay in the business to make it." ; In reply Harvey said lie ,would. r fulljr debate this question later "in its .proper place," but "just give you this to think about meantime: Batween 1850 and'1873 we had a great era of improved facilities. Even the harvesters were 'all invented and iu use before 1878, and yet prices weet rising. Improved facilities increased, constantly and at the same time price* were rising. If 371}i grains of silver ic now only worth 60 cents why is no-6 Afe® gold in the gold dollar only worth B6 cents, if you are right about your cheap cost of production. "In 18t.7 all the money in circulatioc was per capita §18 33. At that time all money was primary money—the measure of values was paper money Itself. In 1822 the per capita of all money m circulation, was $18,39, and all of it was primary money. In 1894 we had a per capita circulation of primary and credit moaey combined of 8H4.S3." The reason .way prices were not higher, as they sho.ol£ have been in 1894 than in 1873, was thafi of the ?24 per capita only §6 was primaiy money, said Harvey. Horr rejoined: "I am very much sus- prised to hear my friend say that wew«» getting along well during the years afi suspension of specie payment when wo used entirely money that on its face hwt to be redeemed. His definition of primary money was money of redemption. Everjr greenback has to be redeemed to make it good. It is not primary money," Horr went on to suy that It was the old greenback cry that the whole business hung on the amount per capita In ciroula- pion, and intimated that Harvey woul* have been a Green backer. Horr did n«fi believe this doctrine; he balieved *&» quality of tho money had much to cto with the matter. "This country war never more prosperous than from Ib79, as I told you yesterday, up to 1893, There te not a man living who can take th^ statistics and prove that wo were not dOlWK well as a nation during all those years'," Horr then asked Harvey who wer^ among the peoples of tbe earth, follower* oi tbe silver idea, and enumerated Cbln&, Mexico, the 8-mth American States, et'e, ? saying chac the most progressive of tho$? peoples were adopting the gold standard Harvey denied the greenback jmpw* tatlon and declared be had never writt^j? anything to ju&tify such an .imputation The reason the civilised nations we*e adopting gold was that ibey were ,&?J,$g tricked, That was tbe way .tbe msRffi power bad destroyed tbe ftomaft JBJpi,?fi«" He then proceeded wltb. tbe M «Qis ' bimetallism" argument and P»id,,, "j money represents primaif moae/* banfc issues it, it is e$pecte4 to in primary rnoneyf W tbe Issues }$, it is expected in , r 'Q ?l: >i >' %'*?, "*»-?* ye&rj'h,aB, three from 171,509,003 gold, increased , , , _ o» taWng tbe ft »U 9i*p forms ot again government, bowe???, it to »n «l»o!i greatoF of primary fl»9ftty; He 4 Q{ w d»9b pf*pB~"i*£ '* "*'s»*r «« •«*•*>*?f - apd, jafc^vjBWwyi „ Art fiffqgfe thfl, W)W«? wKt w pfgprty* WBl,I»^& fttW'^JMMftLW'- -^•-- mu - m MW4«^M&eiV WH»#&"~ '. i*

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