Daily News from London, Greater London, England • 3

THE DAILY NEWS, TUESDAY, MARCH 17, 1868. re tbl'ei'4d by'Jfeiittonb3r a person who knew Ireland weU, and rtonnnntrv aisturbanoe-that oia onaBmio of thooountry jfm-hnce that old ondemio of the country more than the good intention of tin government gHnZh of the noble HsL However that moretnan taogooa inferred from the speech of the noble tari. However that ButunlesB theaentimentswhich we hear may heaffrom him should greatly vary, perhaps I should say, altogether differ froa the sentiments which have been declared by my right hon. fiishd.ihe3ertati-v. of' State for India, and by the wboiie name, it 1 coma mention it, would Be eeTreo.

with respeoVoi- liotlr Sides of iis hOMB. BrS titeif tte-mtol iontent nd Section are eo much con- nw of disooritent ana aisaaeo ttnUAiml Lsares' with the noble which the ase of public money ttuxiliarv to the" worlriBfi think iwe-'" -ought not to 'afraid lovrnhnnS it 'to- I own I feeL.the as to tn of. public may oe maae a very usetui auxuiaryto suon a measure an (near, -mere is anocner point we iinra'tn th libit hf hrini memher for byway of loan oan he made snffi a "svsteih." I oted and iUlm, io the railways of Ireland mil have from rue, ffeotion I think from others, a very but more s3eCdquoirrorderto show that the candid and unprejudiced consideration. I am aware 'h? that what the contrary, the gravity of many objections that may be made to interference, of ftiit crisis is hear ThO conclusion that should be hind but I feej this, on the other hand, I am a deter-tomlHr admitted juxtaposition of mined opponent tfXtlt Birmingham1, who proposes to -bring the state into the! arose from difference of religion, we could never hopMo marketasapurohaserof land withaview.of disposing ofjaee the of AtaU we could not Bee the it again on certain terms. No one, after the explanation end bf it these countries until poor Father -Spencer of that plan by the hon.

gentleman, would object tp it as prayerawere all and; heard for aU. ntlemen; an interference with the rights of property. There are, will reoojleot that Esther Spencer had a abit, durmg the however, difficulties connected with the functions pro-, late years of hislife, of promoting among congregations posed to be laid upon the atate with regard to whioh we prayers'for nhity, But if the present diBaifeotioni-oniy a may be, I wish to across ftjblathafc any measure wWch mav be moposed by; the government with respeot invyur ui rriiiiir 1 bvils of Ireland, by this or that little, petty, looal and often scarcely pubuo operation oi grants that osuses for more satisfaction and sense of wrong nfc ffisl them than ever they cause gratification or contentment in tne parts whioh do. But, besides that, I admit have of late in the interest of England, and I think likewise in the interest of Ireland, made a groat approximation to that prinoiple of equal taxation which SB in my nA.nt.:nn v.illDanliihlvAnniinntftd with the true wopva w- i YAOVV ttAlU UWAlAUliu utuwwv exereiaeof equal rights, and, that being so, I do not believe that if the mode oan be pointed ou't of conferring i u4- if. ha nmml nrn.

upon ireianu youiuAUMj uoumw, r- -videditbe public provided it be undisguised, and provided onerate.not for this or that olassor section, but goes to the wnaie community, 1 ao not ueiievu uiu jriii a moment grudge to confer a pecuniary benefit upon i 1 1 1I ...111 in fll a moment gruoge to comer (Hear, hear.l Sir. I wiU only notioe, in the way of protest, the renewal of a statement that I have irexanu. incur, tm, a i. otafomAn r.htlT. hnVft heard twice in this debate with great concern, namely, free trade.

I cannot but express my great regret j-i 1 nil imorurtnA fnA tnao in tnese uujb( wuou wo process of conversion, when we are all of us freetraders, there are yet certain parts and quarters vi the house in whioh so soon as ever an opportunity offers of nibbling at free trade, or of imputing to free trade some mischief or public calamity, it is forthwith made use (Hear, hear.) Now, what ground can there be ior imputing to free trade, the grievances ot Irelana, wiien j-UJ. wif.tinil RVrtATT.10n risen in value since free trade was adopted (Cheers.) pass on to the three questions whish occupied the prin- 1 J. 1. An Aln nnnl Omfl Alt T.WH cipai pare ortxiu sueecu ui wio uuuw which especiaUy must turn the great contention Tirnnnnt rn nn Kit wiuuu no nooiu ivohm b-wt Trio fi tsif no if. nflin nn in the nobl earl speeob, is the subject gof educationI mean the higher education, because I do not think that at this moment there ia any question distinctly raised with a a.

ai a orlnnaiMnri nf Traland. regttiu cub pruuHi uuu 7- (Hear. hear.) With respect to the higher education, it look haok with a sentiment of paternal affection and regret .1 1 1 1A (Anmoil 11. hO VRfir tne pian wnicntne rate goveruiuoiiu 18h5, whioh we made known in the year 1866, and which enaeavoureu at mai lime iu oaiij whioh was thwarted by the change of goverment, and by other oiroumstancea. That plan was founded upon two prmoipies.

ah wie unv iiiauo, wo wiu, i now, that the Eoman oatholics of Ireland, and not only theKoman catholics, but an important portion of the pro-testans of Ireland, in a degree not less than the Roman catholics, have with respect to education a real and admitted grievance, namely, that if they seek for their a.ij ai. a triA nfl.finn toTiJaTi in nftliRfl denomina- UUUU1DU UJH JVUlu lA CHUUVLVU tional, they are subjected to detriment in respect of certain' civil rights on aocount of that conscientious belief and that religious opinion. (Hear, hear.) I need not say that in my view no method of deal- JA1- 3 Tcalonl non hp. flfltia- lUg Willi MJW UlgUtil- VUUUtlbiUU AAft "-iu-v. faotory whioh shall not provide an effectual remedy for tt 1 Vr.

olcri frainrtpn mir- tnat real grievance. xxai, no. selves upon a most Bincere, though I admit not generally understood, desire to maintain in full vigour the system of Queen's Colleges whioh were founded Sir Robert Peel and I am bound to say that with the additional experience of the two years whioh have sinoe passed I think that the plan that was then proposed for settling that question of the higher education in Ireland was a plan which would have settled it upon terms by far the oheapeBt that will ever be found capable of being accepted with the view to won. (near, nqwevoi, iuu ihb evU star, and I shall not speak of it as being now existenoe. Wehavenow passed on to another stage.

Another -at, Al.A Hnnnrnmaitf. 11 Gl O. TlflTTi esiatouue. uavouuw woaoou vu a government is in office, and that government, as apart to be tended only for the benefit of a tint and how manv we know not, tnat are in tneu- cannot afford, in estimating a pubUo measure, to omit altogether theobservation of facts, and particularly of those law. tnmK i may say, wiiaiiu waiv -a iaa -a mi-l nmM vrtlnntnt'llv 1 xniuiic 1 may say, wiwim ia ujuita .1 .1 iri1imf oviltr HOB Olliy WUau ll UU LHJHULA undertaken the support of universities and colleges constituted as it is now proposed, but likewise that upon every oooasion for the last twenty or thirty years it has Been aonveiy anu.

oonBcuiitiy wugwfccu, get rid off votes which were directly connected with any sec- biuuua ua uaiwjj.ia-jo.mi.vj'. ivvjw- education. (Cheers.) Kow, do not let it be supposed that have forgotten that there was a vote beyond the memory many who now sit here, but likewise within the memory 11 A 1 Al, many, wmcn was annuauy taitau aua in sum of or for the purpose of sustain ing certain ohairs at uxiora ana an auiaiuB. That vote was not tne spontaneous vore 01 paiAiiu-i-ui, was a vote taken over by parliament under an extended a ial. ai.

---jiril wnmn arrangement witu sue wwwu aa-u maw formerly constituted part of the personal bounty of the in i 11 TA rtf 11.1.00. sovereign, i-uc was tnat tui in i sant contention. Ko year passed without its being challenged, and when I was Chancellor of the Exchequer under the government of Lord Aberdeen I thought myself happy, to make an arrangement with the universities, by whioh that vote was removed from the cognizance of parliament; and not a farthing has been voted for fifteen years for the purpose of either university, or any corresponding institution. I apprehend that was done, not merely on the ground of satisfying principles, however Btrongly embraced by some persons, t.a i -ia ai A nf flief. nhn.rn.nrAV.

fivfin DUE DeUaUBB 111 Was AOlfc UUrtll vwuco u. ua.hu where direoted to the Bupport of a religion corresponding with the faith of the majority, still were perpetual subjeots controversy. Does theright hon. gentleman thmk that the foundation ot universities ana colleges i hr ftnnnn.1 irvants from the consoli dated fund, is a proposal that ean live either AT Ai AJr-a- nntTlft iHaOT. vjuoao uuuoa ua au "i- i hear.) I will not now enter upon the question the Maynooth grant, that old subjeot of con tention.

It is a case not analogous to that which we are now invited to deal with. That, too, came to us as a le- gaoy from the Irish parliaments, jsut i meet tne liues-tion on practical grounds, and although I shall retain on every Irish, question adeBire to go to the very furthest point in meeting Irish sentiment and opinion, yet I tUllliA IU WUU1LA UD VULAL, DiUlA ALAAf uui iw- frankly to avow my conviction that the proposition whioh has been made, or rather, I may say, sketched in air by the noble lord the Seoretary for Ireland, is one which it is totally impossible to carry into execution. (Hear, hear.) I cannot but think that the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues must oe as well aware of that as we are, for how curious was the disolosure made to ub the other night by the noble lord. He said this was his expression: a most winning, soothing, I might almost call it, coaxing expression ''We are deter- a- A1.3..

firo nnnfi(lpllA tn milieU lUttKO Ull 1UW gnrU du-jwu vu- the House of Commons." Nothing oould possibly be XT "Riit ihn. in t.llA r.onSR- more aimauitj. a 1 quence of this endearing practice of first confidences ift. a 11 t-n Ann.iv.i4; miraplvAR tfi rOPftRUreS ID IB SO CUJU Uiual uu 7 TC before we know anything whatever about them, as to the probability or tneir oeing acceptea uy uj except the fifteen distinguished gentlemen who meet in the cabinet room of her Majesty. (Hear, hear.) I do not know whether it is fair to oall on us to produoe evidence of the negative.

I do not propose to show that there are i a- Al AU rranflpmftn' npnmiRft no assents to wie lumu vl aaiauau. think it his business to show that there are no dissents catnouo Bishop of the 9th Jagel find this paVs'age, whfch I arl ail5y poslttvely t. ha nia-iofti or enisconal TvigVroUB lay element was to Antata, ao as to emnre be joinerl with clenoa uSrX mpnt of the insti- lair, open ana uaiuoiu- jjuoiiuuvu. tution. Now what is it they say 1 quote trom jne authoritative statement ot tnose aistmguiueu juwwitu, writing on the part of the Irish bishops, who at a meeting i-i iiwi with the trovfirn- last uotoBer bujiuaaluou ment in their name on the question of the endowment of .1 it.

rm, nnimTtln nn wnion the lnsti tne catnouu uuivcio-y. v. merarcny are yicuiiuicu "Vc; i university is thus declared Equally certain is it that the bishops will not forego the right of sfi, rpunAnt to anv rjossible plan of university education in its bearing on the faith and morals of their flocks. That is a right inherent in the office of the bishop, forming an esBential part of his pastoral authority, whioh he oan on no account forego. It includes the right of intervening in the aeleotion of teachers, of watching over them, and if necessary of removing those whose influenoe may be injurious to the spiritual interests of catholio youth.

It also includes the right of examining, and, if expedient, of rejecting books whioh it may be proposed to use in tue traot proceeds to state, I have no doubt with sci0iai progress witn increased ana inweas-1 mta1 rt and alienation of spirit, is that some' fSisfied necessity a till exists, and that the first, Peat Xvornment should be to discover what that nf the government. "rr. ll i T. uvj meet its aemanos. u-ear.

i.w c0 than the declaration whioh is sooommonly ourrent, anism has no connexion with our conduct as a that a en" This is one of those oases so of a verbal truth which is a real untruth. jbob, in connexion with our conduct and our Fem3DCs which the last link at one end of the chain the last link at the other. Who will deny the has hetween Fenianism and the dissatisfied state of Wfthat exists in Ireland? Who wiU deny the connexion lTin aat dissatisfied state of feeling and the polioy pursued by England? (Hear, hear.) It is tna' Hint we should examine this question. I rejoice time now that we auuum i tohefreprgie oroci-ess in the largest I tot fpVl that by admitting that progress in the largest toil wain the slightest degree weaken-on the contrary rther steps which remain to complete the connexion wn the two countries the diminution of the griev-' which so long ground down the masses of the rf I do not inquire into the extent of Sintion or how muoh of that distress re-thtt' I admit the fact and I rejoice at it. There is a 'wp if not more important, at least equally important, rti'at is that in the olasses above the want of the Radiate necessities of life a sentiment has grown up BH.theIastgenera.tionof attachment to the lawandorder fthP country, greater, more substantial, more lively, mme effectual, with a view to the administration of Sice than has ever, perhaps, been known in former justice, hearj A great achievement, and let me ft Lt greater encouragement.

(Hear, hear.) Well, is this decrease in agrarian crime. It is impossible Ixmeas the satisfaction with winch we now that it was nothing but the very extremity want and miser which led to those 0 Irraomnted by what Mr. O'Connell called the wild so long formed a scandal to the and immediately tho direct sting of want was Sher removed, or at least rendered less poignant in its ap-Kion, those outrages ceased, anda feeling of confidence iu the administration of 1ustice. This is a oiroum- ntTai to which we cannot too freely indulge in Batisfao-f. (Hear hear.) But let us consider what are the of recent occurence that give to this period at whioh Thave the honour of addressing the house the character of a reat political crisis, catling upon us to consider well position in which we stand.

In the first place there that depletion of the country described in terms so vivid kv the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) at a Sri-i When it was more marked than it is at present, but Sich still continues on a scale, the economical nnportanoe Tf which I will not attempt at this time to appreciate, but which amienrs to me to assume what may well be oalled a portentous character, not on accountof the numbere of those who across the sea to seek a home elsewhere, but on ILcouut of the spirit with which they quit our shores. fHear hear No amount of argument, no amount of Spadmeas to what we havedone or endeavoured to do, even plenums'" fn mnra -narFcnl; fllnti thov r. if the pleas were iuuci rrmld I think, remove from the very bottom of the heart and intelligence 01 7p nainful and latent consciousness that where not one man nor anotuer, uu whole population, or such portion of the population as mast lorm sample neoole-that when such persons quit these shores, bearing withthem, on the one hand, a passionate attachment to the homes they quit, but on the other hand a bitter and burning aversion to the laws and government they JAftve bemna inem, uwwu i in TitrifiVB from the mind I of pleadmg can, I thmk JXTre be ZZ of vox Topuir vox muca or iruvu uu Vfrty- tacihty witn wmcn extraordiiarv gravity of this tact Dy urging, uui a.h, ment had mercifuUy and discreetly used its arbitrary sower and on the other hand, that the renewal of the suspension had been freely aocorded in this house.

Both these faots are undoubted facts but, so far as regards the free assent of parliament, and the renewal of the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, I venture to repeat that which was well and opportunely said by my right hon. friend the member for Louth (Mr. C. Fortesoue)at one of the stages of the bill-" We assent to the renewal of that act because our first duty is to meet the necessities of public order, and to secure the protection of the law to the peaceable subjects of the crown." But we regard that as no light or trivial formality. On the contrary, we regard it as the testimony and the proof of a state of things so grave in Ireland as to call upon us to consider what state of laws and institutions it may be that stand in connexion with the sacrifices of privileges so precious and invaluable.

(Hear, hear.) Well, sir, under these circumstances, we have seen this portentous andloathsome disease of Fenianism overflow into England. We have seen it disturb the peace of towns and distriots this country. We have seenit create the neoessity whioh, whatever else it may be, has led to the enrolment of the inhabitants of England by tens of thou- i 4.hi wflsorvfltion or tne Banas lor specuu 'f peace, and to the increase thus very metropolis of a large -nnnnnpii tn he reouisite tor numoeroi tua uuiiiio awaw, rt- 7-a the conservation of order. Now, are these circumstances i i nArhin oliapt in Trflland that has nouuag. ana.

is biioic happened Is it enough to say as we may say, -whatever the gnevances ot tne people v. jicaiaula far less than they were; consequently there caa be no great necessity. Yes, sir, no doubt they are ar less than they were at the time when you had not taught the people of Ireland how to understandand appreciate them. But you 1 an -ffimpnt. nvstem or nubile nave estaDiiBueu iu lci-ia a education-(hear, hear)-and that education has given a- A- whn mip'iifc have cone on from generation to generation with their uncultivated ininds, allowing days and years to glide away, and never comprehending the significance of political circumstancos bearing on their condition; whUeyou have relieved them from a part, and a great part, of the causes of their complaint, you have left the rest in existence, and at the same time you have given them the means of lorming a pretty accurase withrelpect to your relations to themselves.

(Hear, hear.) I must add, for I think it is an important feature in this ji i rrfTft the sreat Dolitical change-iAtroduced into the constitution of this oountry -e i-a fi li rpfnrrn ot the reore- oy me measure oi iaoi' jcoA sentation of the people, has produced no inconsiderable effect in imparting an impetus to the public mind-(hear, i i .1 I i a whinn for manv vears uearj ana in Ar-- 0nwbB.L! slu-eish to grapple olosely and resolutely with the problems with the i nr. all these necessities 01 tilings, I own, when taken together appear to me to place as in a condition in which we must endeavour carefully to appreciate that position; nor, thus far, is there any difference between us and her Majesty's government, because her fllaiesty's governmeui, uoual hon. gentleman assumed the high post that he occupies, i V.n.nir a nnllov for Ireland. aamittea tne uecesBAujr v. -r rlidnhnTcrp nt ordinarv xnat means muou mvio l.a.u duties in ordinary times, and what we have now to --ai av.a Tinlifi-f if.

hna been ascertain is wneiuot announced, corresponds with the real exigencies of the cublic interest and duty. (Hear, Sir, there are totnSlZdop passthem under review at iB moment. The first ot these is Pmonta refo rm wiU not dwell further than to oDserve tnat granted, ana mane no a.v which 'her Majesty's fvemment introduce to parliament in the course of a few davs will be a measure which will large increase the popular influences that are brought into notion for the purpose of sustaining the constitution in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Making that assumption, I can have no cause of quarrel at this moment on that ground with her Majesty's government. I only note it beoauso in my view the fulfilment of those expectations is an absolute condition, without which it would be impossible, I think, for most of us to recognise as satisfactory or efficient any policy with respect to Ireland.

(Hear, hear.) The next subject is that of the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill. There had been an expectation that we were to hear from the government what their intentions were with respeot to that bill. It is a subjeot, I own, of great importance, as belonging to that class whioh is, I think, unwisely called sentimental grievances. I should be glad to hear what policy her Majesty's government intend to pursue with reapeot to that measure. So far as I myself am concerned I bestowed upon it at the moment of its birth anything but a bene-diction-(hear, hear) and I never saw reason to change a.

at rtnironn nnTYimilTnCfltlOn Auy aemiments ana r-Aii-LUA am. at all to make to the house as to any vote I shall give in ai i al. Titlnn Act ahonldi the oan wo it for lor of 11 of. has I ill of on we by an i I of or of in of I a on thi 4nestiol-Mftyie) WJike from the opporition)-and to give our rabmiMon scheme of university education wtaoh, when we have ''adopted it; wo iriay find assffiptable' to rioono but ourselvec. ti cannot icau suou proposal a measure.

.1. must rather: call, it a nofaon or an idea, arid I must ob-ervef" that the adoptidn of it wilt not eettle the question. (Hear; hea'r.) You would still: have the Presbyterians with, and not them only, the Wesleyan methodists. Do not suppose that alter once setting the precedent of establishing that uni versity you would persuade mem to rauaiu a position of inequality, particularly when you have iii existence in Ireland an institution called the Magee College a college possessed of wealth and endow ments to nearly, tne same amount as tne present nornuu Catholio TJniversity and making demnnda on ypu equally just for free access for its (Hear, hear.) With respect to this plan, viewing it as I do iii the nature of a visionary creation, I will only say that in my opinion the position of the question of the higher education has neen muoh changed within the laBt two years. Even last year the subjeot.

was raised -in. this house by my honourable friend the member for Brightonand my right hon. friend themember forLime-riok, as to how far it was right to reconsider the position of the great national university of Ireland, and there is so much to be said tin that subjeot, that I am not willing to form an opinion as to what may be the best' mode of solution of this question until wo know what course it may be right to take in respect to the Dublin University. It is quite evident that this question of education is now running up into the still higher and greater question oftheohuroh. (Hear, hear.) If we are prepared to take those decisive measures with respect to the church of Ireland which have been reoommended, it is plain that the position of the national university would require to be specially reconsidered.

(Hear, hear.) In saying this I have not thought it right to disguise my opinion that auoh a plan as iB here projected of putting upon the consolidated fund of the three kingdoms, especially with their strong and predominating protestant ohairaoter and feeling, an institution such as is now proposed, in broad deviation or contradiction to our precedents and tendencies, is a visionary one. If parliamentary achemeB, lilt human beines. are to be found in the other world, then I oay this scheme, if it ever shotUd he met by a wan derer into tnose regions, wiu rans witn tiiose ueecnoea oy Virgil in these words Quo3 dulcio vitffl exortes, et ab ubore raptos Abstulit atra dioB, et funere mersit acerbo Hos juxta, falso daranatiorAihlne morUa. (Cheers.) It is, sir, of the nature of those schemes which die before they live. I now pasB on to other and greater subjects the questions of the land and the churoh.

As respects the first of these, I am glad to make an admission that here, as also with regard to parliamentary reform, the noble lord has laid a ground on whioh, in the first instance at least, we may hope to meet but I oannot speak of the plan of tho noble lord without pointing out to the house how real in my judgment ia the grievance with reBpeot to land in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) In the year 1844 the question of Irish tenure and the unprotected position of the oultivator with regard to the fruita of his interest and labour had beoome so urgent and importunate as to lead the conservative government of Sir Bobert Peel to appoint a oommisaionto examine thoroughly into the matter. The commission reported in 1845. It was composed of men whose names carried the utmost confidence, one of them being Mr. Hamilton, now Secretary of the Treasury, who was in immediate political connexion with the party opposite.

That commission imanimously reported on many subjects connected with tenure, but especially they reported to this effeot, that under conditions and for purposes which they desoribed, it was the duty ol parliament, without delay, to legislate so as to seoure to the tenant the benefit of his improvements, even if made without the consent of the landlord. This opinion was adopted by the government of Sir K. Peel, and Lord Derby, as the representative of that government in the House of Lords, in 1845 made an earnest effort to procure tho adoption of the prinoiple. But from that day to this the principle has not been adopted, (Hear, hear. Bill after bill haa been proposed, and eitner rejeciea or evaueu, nu lu uum jiuul- mo aooount of the Irish nation with England, in respeot to tli tomirn of land, remains unsettled.

(Hear, hear.) The only, bill that haB been passed was that of my right hon. inena near me rmawug lujuruv-iuouba whioh the landlords did not object; but that bill has remained a dead letter, and for, the last 25 years the Irish people, upon their little farms, have been conducting a daily battle of life without the shelter whioh the Devon Commission, the Peel government, the Derby government, and every administration has deolared ought to be given and we have to make this confession of our impotence to disoharge the primary daty.of juBtice to the country. (Hear, hear.) We have heard reference made to the operations of the Encumbered EstateB Court and the T.nniiAil Court: and I understand that land to the value of between thirty-five and forty millions has passed throush those eourts. It ia said that that land amounts in not far short ot one-nttn or tne ciutivaoie lana in Ireland. The improvements made on that ln hm it was sold wore made by the tenants.

Speaking generally, when these 36,000,000. worth were sold in the Encumbered Estates Court, the improvements of the land, whioh constituted a large portion of the value of those estateB, were made by the tenant, for whioh he had never received value. Who did receive value for them? The vendor, namely, the landlord. (Cheers.) These improvements were bought over the head of the tenant from the outgoing by the inooming landlord. The incoming landlord was entitled or perhapa I ought to say, at all events ne was too mucii teuipieu to Bay tnat tie had paid for them, that they were an element in the price, and that he must adapt his rent to them.

I am afraid it is an undeniable fact that in many oases there has been a great aggravation of the position and of the discontent of the tenant produoed by the operation of a measure which, however beneficial in its general soope and intention it may have been, appears to have been hard and unfortunate in some of its results. (Hear, It appears to me that the noble lord is perfectly right in; proposing legialation to seoure to the tenant oompenaa-tion for improvements But I own I am very sorry indeed that he united with the announcement of hia bill the announcement also of a commission, beoause I think, in; the first place, that the soope of that commission is exceedingly uncertain. I Bee no definition of the matters with which it is to deal. I own I have a nearer and more, pressing fear, that the appointment of that commission maybe used as a very plausible objeotion to present legislation. (Cheers.) I believe that this matter is urgent in a high degree, and I should most deeply regret to see a plea put into the mouths of those who, from jealousy or fear and from exclamations whioh reached me a few moments ago there may be some who feel jealousy or fear in thiB house I should feel; sorry to see put into their mouthB a plea which might serve to recommend tho further postponement of this vital question.

(Hear, hear.) It ia customary to argue this question by saying that the law can be very grievous in Ireland because it is tho same as the law in England. I myself amongst others have been content to do that whioh upon a review of the matter I do not think was quite suffioient for the oase, namely, to argue that a multitude of local customs as well as social oircumstanoes made the operation of the law in England different from what it is in Ireland. We have admitted that standard of appeal, but I now wish to challenge it altogether. (Cheers.) I must say on reflec tion tnat so tar nom tumtLiAig UAIOAKW ULXUUgltVUU, V1UWBU nakedly with regard to the prinoiple it asserts, namely, that all that which the tenant puts into or upon the aoil, in the absence of covenants to the contrary, shall be the property of the landlord so far from thinking that a good law I humbly think it is a bad law, and that the jUBt and true law would be, that in the absenoe of oovenantB, if the landlord thinks fit to make over to another party the whole business of cultivating the soil, the improvements effeoted by his tenant in the course of that cultivation shall be the property of that tenant. (Cheers.) But if the existing law is bad in England, it is a bad law mitigated, as my hon.

friend the member for Westminster has shown, with irresistible foroe, by a multitude of circumstances that intercept and neutralise the operation of that law, and plaoe it rather in the oategory of theoretioal than of praotical grievances. Not one of those oiroumstanoea, however, extends to Ireland. This is not a case upon which it would be wise to enter into detailB and I humbly recommend the noble earl (Lord Mayo) to avoid as muoh a9 he oan minute and complicated details speoifioationa of how muoh is to be allowed here and there. Let him take the prinoiple of England, and, if I may use a homely phrase, turn it inside out. If, then, he will frame executory provisions, as few as possible, he will lay the foundation of a return to that eonfidenoe whioh is so essential.

(OheorB.) I urge thia matter very strongly, for I feel that muoh depends upon it. I own I am one of those who are not prepared I have not daring sufficient to accompany my hon. friend the member for Westminster, notwithstanding the powerful and weighty statement with which he supported or rather introduced (a laugh) his proposal, namely, what appeared to me to be Mb proposal for the dismiBsal of the landlords of Ireland. Whether the Irish landlords have done their duty or not I will not undertake to say. I believe that false legislation, and the miserable system of asoendanoy whioh has prevailed in Ireland have so distorted and disfigured the relationa between clasB and class throughout that countay, that until the evil is effectually oured we cannot pass a fair judgment upon the matter or form a conclusion as to what we may reasonably hope to see effeoted in the future.

(Cheers.) Well, sir, there is another question, less formidable in prinoiple, but one of which we often hear. I mean fixity of tenure. Now I own that it Beems to me that the great object is to give the tenant full BBOurity that the prooeedB of his labour and of his capital shall under all circumstances, unless ho covenants to part with them, be his. (Cheers.) Legislation to that end, if simple and effective, will have a very powerful tendency at any rate towards stability and it will make wanton disturbance by landlords, diffioult, and perhapa a costly measure. StiU Iamnotashamedtosaythatlshrink from the attempt to prooure direot legislation for fixity of tenure.

Leases in such a form as prevaila in Sootland afford admirable assistance but since the repeal of the corn lawa we have had much experience in England. We have here a very intelligent and constantly improving tenantry but it is found not to be safe to attempt any sudden or wholesale intioduotion of leases. What I fear is that direot legislation upon that subject might be misunderstood and might be injurious. But I should muoh wish to say that while I minM TOnlrlir TBrnmiso the nnnoiplo that the proceeds of labour should belong to the tenant, I dp not i. a': i A fivjA-, nt WMtm Hfl entirely aee my way to Bujjpw aaj a -ri-v -r faraa it lesnlta from ilie operation of trnt prtawple, I iThs.

"in the -connio anroment vior cnurou hhihh in ffgwutiffnnw- T-. Yvrw quciw. to furnish an araumoht in our favour, tne aisattection (owmmhhot) Irish, mast oertainly, it oan be ended. In England you nave and theconauered Briton. gaxon.

and Normani though it must be admitted that the British Celt was the hardest to weld. But at length it has been done by the operation of equal laws and rights. The example of Scotland is more to the point, and occurs to. every one, Now I say that this inequality of the church establishment is the only, remaining vestige of conquest it is the last remnant of the conqueror's ascendance. (Hear, hear.) for one.

share that opinion. Without the slightest reproach to any of. those-who bear office in the Irish ohuroh, .1 am convinced, from a. long observation, that' that institution is, and by the law of its existenoe must and lastrefuge of the spiritual ascendancy: and as that which beyond all particular and i ii a li or.itnfiial special queacionB ib cue ujLiuiaiuu ui -i asoendanoy from Iieland, I take leave to; say; that in order to that expulsion we must now proceed decisively to aeai witn tnat queBiivu Irish churoh. (Hear, hear.) Why, sir, what an illustration of this subject have we had thiB very night My hon, mend the member tor fUldaio put a question relating iu ri inflammatorvsneach madebvaFellowof Trinity College, and an friend of irdne oppasitej the member for Whitehaven, who of known ingenuity in repartee, thought that he had fairly counterplotted tne pian oi tne member for Kildare by produoing a parallel speech by a Soman catholio priest and, sir, I own it was with some amount of diBsatistaocion tnat i neara tne answer or tun Attorney-General for Ireland, beoause I do not trace in the particulars of that answer.that spirit of perfeot impartiality (hear, hear) which I have gladly admitted in the general conduct of the government.

The Boman catholics met last Ootober1 or November, and shorthand writers were appointed on the part of the government-(hear, hear) to attend and make sure that no mischief came of But when the Protestant Defence Sooiety met to discourse on the subject which was dilated on by Mr. Ferrers, therewas no government shorthand writer present (hear) and Mr.Ferrerahavingmadea speech, thetermaof which deserve like those of the Tether speeoh the severest oen-sure, rides off upon a perfeotly vague and general assertion, not that the report is incorrect, but that it is incomplete, and that if a context had been supplied which he takes care not to supply the construction would have been changed. (Hear, hear.) But suppose that to be the oase, are these instances parallel? Who was Mr. Layelle The outoast child of a ohuroh prbsoribedin Ireland oh," and hear, of a ohuroh long proscribed, and now excluded from all the benefits and favours of the state. Who was Mr.

Ferrers Mr. Ferrers is an example of the results of' the learned leisure; and dignified eaae, and- richly endowed fellowahipa of Trinity College, Dublin, and a proof that all its seeds produce' much the same description of fruit as the discontented and disconsolate condition of the Koman catholio churoh. But what is the further difference between them? The man who smarts' under inequality uses- violent) unBeemly, and culpable language; but) the man who is threatened with nothing but equality uses language much the same: in its violent and unseemly oha'raoter. (Loud oheers.) We must not be too hard upon individuals. oh," and "hear, These things are in a great part the of an evil system and inveterate traditions, and I was glad when the right hon.

and learned gentleman said that he did not intend to pro-seonte the one set of words or the other. But we should do more wisely to lay the axe to the root, and try to stop the further engendering of these poisonous and. pestilential fruits. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the church, as to which I will enter into further argument in detail, ia' my opinion it is absolutely necessary that we should, in the first place, eatablishedreli-gioas equality in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Stating this at a publio meeting of my constituents some months ago, I thought that I'had Baid all that was important.

But that declaration has been deprived of its meaning by aeyeral distinguished persons, who have adopted and affixed to it a sense totally different from mine. I am not going to distress the i-elativo merits of levellinig up and levelling I am neither for levelling up nor for levelling down, but this' equality, understood in the sense of grants from the exchequer, in order to bring the general population of Ireland up to the level of the establishment, or understood in the sense of plans for dividing and redistributing the income of the establishment in salaries and stipends to the clergy of the several communions these are measures which, whether benefioial or not, might at other times have been possible, hut in my opinion they have how passed all bounds of poa- 1 -l'l 3 .1 Ai 1 A A it Sa i.oiwi BlOUlty. JUOUU UUUlrAUUCW WMWUlg. AV mb and idle for us, as practical men charged with praotical HiiMAti. t.n tae tiicmn or Keen tnem in our view, my npi- nion is, then; that;" religious equality is a phrase which reauires further develoomeht, and I develop it fur ther bv savine that in this relieiouB equality in Ire: land I for my part include in its fulleBt extent Mia wnril n.

vbpv erave word I do not deny and I think we cannot be too careful to estimate its gravity before we oome to a final conclusion the very gruV6 word disestablishment. (Hear, hear.) If we are to do any good at all by meddling with the church in Ireland i ma. in mv oninion. be bv Duttins an end to its exist ence as -a atate ohuroh. (Hear, hear.) No doubt it is a great and formidable operation I do not disguise it to nofiii intn n.

nf fthristians united onlv bv volun tas ties those who have for three centuries and a half been direotly aaaooiated under the Tudor Bystem with the action of tjje state, and whom the Act of Union 70 yeara ago brougntstui more oioaeiymto reiationB w.nu tue oivu power. This is si great and formidable task, yet my persuasion is that in.removing privilege andrestraint together, in granting freedom in lieu of monopoly, a task will be proposed to that is not beyond the courage and the statesmanship of the British legislature. (Hear, hear.) I entirely agree with my hon. friend the member for Birmingham in what I understood to be the' purport of his speeoh, as to the mode of effecting thia great operation. We must, in my opinion, respeot every vested inte-rest (hear, hear) every proprietary right, every legitimate feeling; and in every case of doubt that arises we must honestly endeavour to strike a balanoe in favour of the party and againat ourselves.

Tbe operation is rude enough after all the mitigation whioh we oan impart to it by the spirit in which we may endeavour to approach it. But, I again aay that in my opinion that operation, to attain ita end, to achieve the peat results, that we. Beek and desire, must be an operation whioh for Ireland shall finally and so far as we are ooncerned, set aside and put out of view all fear of aalaried or stipendiary clergy. I hope I have deolared with sufficient olearnesa (hear, hear, oh, and oheere) the general Bene of the' polioy for whioh it appears to me the time come. I have deliberately endeavoured to vindicate abstinence from previous agitation upon thia question.

Not only when I was in offioe in 1865, hut when I was out oi omce last year, i aeouneu to vote with my the member for Kilkenny, be-aiTfAifc tlmf. crivina- nunh a vote miht be construed into sending forth a pledge to the people of this country and to the people of Ireland which 1 was not prepared to redeem. But in the present state ot Ireland, witn its suspended libertie- and with its continuing evils, asBUming a subtler, and perhaps on that account a more dangerous, fo-m(hear, hear) and viewing the state of opinion whioh has grown up in, this country in no small degree under the influence' of changeB promoted; by her Mn.iAstv'0 oreBant adiniiustration, I recognise the faot that the time has oome when this ques tion ought to be approached, and when, it approached, it ought to be dealt with once for afl. Sir, with respeofe motion of my hon. friend the -nomhoi.

fnr Onrk. I hone that he will withdraw that mo tion, not the least ai implyipg that it was an unnatural one for him to make, or a useless one for parliament to On the contrary, it has greatly advanced the public sentiment oh this question. We on this side of the house have not been inattentive to the voioesthat have proceeded from that side, and we doubt whether again the influence of religious feeling whioh we thmk narrow and misguided will sustain the government of her Majesty in the polioy or plan they recommend of maintaining the fabrieof the Irih establishment, and of giving it a mord support by the creation of a number of hew fabrics around u. fhn BBnan of ineaualitv in Ireland leas sharp and lesB intolerable by grants at the charge of the people of these three kingdoms. On the contrary, I respectfully recommend a withdrawal of the motion upon this clear irround.

The motion emDraces tne irisii quEiou no one, and doubtless it, is one for dehberation and diaouasion, but for notion and for legislation it ia one whioh dividea itseii into Drancnes. On some of those branones we navB tne pruuiuia ui via-poBals from the government, whioh, so far as I can judge, and without any present attempt to measure the amount, will be useful at least aa far as they go. Our desire is to maroh withthem to the furtheat povnt that is possible to leave them only under tho compulsion of what we may think our duty when they reach that point without hesitation to leave them. We shall be glad to co-operate with them as respects their proposals, at least so I trust at any rate, to see now rar im- uu suua -nna-fieir nrmwaals touching the land and the parlia mentary inatitutions of the country. But there remains thia great and vital question of the churoh, which lies at the root of all the other questions, surrounding them all, pervading them all constituting, as it were, an atmosphere within whioh all those other questions have to be touched and handled (Cheers'.) I do not disguise that, so far as I am acquainted witn tne aentiments ot tnose wn nit nn this side of the; house, the deolarationa that have hoen made by her Majesty's government are wholly unsatisfactory, but I do not aay'that they would be more satiBfaotory had' they proposed some small, measure, or had they hem out some distant- nope, some distant unrjalDable hope without substance or body.

The oase IS not yet lkupawb, vowium no univ aiuu unuu luu deolaration of the right hon; gentleman at the head of the atoinistration, and there-have been times' when hia de coloart? debate; (Hear.) other members of the. government who have spoken, I for A a 1- .1 L. A 1. A Al. uijt yni cannot eDtertBin a uuuuu uxab -u waaa uo vwa rduty of those who differ from the government to make a proposal and to ask the' opinion of the house upon -the question of the Irish ohuroh.

(Loud opposition cheers -and counter oheers.) But, flir, if auoh a proposition is to be made, two things I venture to add. In the first place, it ougne to be plain, simple, and intelligible its terms. Isuppose that any one who might make it, would justly disclaim the duty of submitting to parliament a measure upon a subject that can only be dealt with by the govern-aont but the nrincicle and basis of that measure ought to be indicated, bo that the issue may he plainly taken. oa one tmng j. must add, and it is this the aeoiarations of parliament with respeot to the Irish church establishment will not nqwperhaps if it stands alone command all.

the oredit whioh they might have commanded in other daK- because1 it1 is not the first tinie that parliament has endeavoured to assert the prinoiple of dealing with the property of the established churoh in Ireland. For several successive years this house adopted the appropriation clause, and at length, confessing defeat, desisted from the attempt to pass it into law. I do not think, therefore, that if anything is deolared by the house on the subject of the Irish churoh we ought to confine ourselves to words. (Cheers.) It ought to be a declaration attended with some step or proceeding whioh will give to the people of this country, and to the people of Ireland, conclusive proof that we have notentered hastily nor lightly upon a task of so much gravity, that we mean what we aay, and that so far as depends upon us the task will be performed. (Hear, hear.) Sir, under these circumstances it seems to me to be clear that we ought not to take issue with her Majesty's government upon the motion which is now before the house' But when that motion has been disposed of, our duty will not have passed away on the contrary, it will dome nearer and more near to view.

We remember the words, the earnest and touching motto with which the noble earl closed his address when he expressed a hope and uttered a oall inviting the Irish people to union and-to loyalty. Sir, that is our object too, but I am afraid that as to the means the differences between us are still profound and itis idle, it is mocking to use words unless we can sustain them with corresponding That substance oan be supplied lry nothing but by the unreserved devotion of our efforts now, on perhaps' this last stage of the Irish crisis, to remove the scandal and the mischief which has so long weakened and afflicted the empire. For that work I trust strength will be given us. If we be prudent men, I hope we shall endeavour, so far as in us lies, to make provision for the contingencies of a doubtful and possibly a aangorouB future if we be chivalrous men, I trust we shall endeavour to wipe away the stains which the civilised world has for ages seen, or seemed to see, upon the shield of England in her treatment of Ireland. If we are compassionate men, I hope we shall now once, and once for all, listen to that tale of sorrow which comes from her, and the reality of which, if not its justice, is testified by the continuous migration of her people that we shall endeavour to Ea.e out the written trouble of her brain, Pliickfrom her memory a rooted sorrow." (Cheers.) But above all, if wo be just men, we shall go forward in the name of truth and right, and bear this in mind, that when the case is ripe and the hour has come, justice delayed is justice denied.

(Loud and prolonged cheering.) Mr. DISRAELI, who was received on rising with loud and continued cheers, said Sir, the right hon. gentleman when he rose to-night made a charge against the government. He 'made at the same time an announcement of Startling importance, for he told us that the crisis of Ireland had arrived, and that the measures her Majesty's government proved that they did not realise that fact. As the right hon.

gentleman, proceeded, it appeared that the crisis of Ireland whioh has just arrived (laughter) was the culminating point of a controversy which had existed for 700 years. I could ot but feel that I was a most unfortunate minister for the moment I had arrived, by her liCajesty's gracious favour, in the position whioh I now ill, the controversy that had lasted for 700 years had reached its culminating' point, and I was immediately called' upon, with my colleagues, to produoe measures equal to suoh a supernatural visitation. (Laughter and oheers.) Sir, I was very curious to know what should be tho circumstances which oould have brought about a conjuncture so startling and unprecedented, and I watched with great interest the right hon. gentleman as be proceeded, and when, as I thought with a dangerous candour, he began to indicate to the house what wore the elements of thia portentous crisis. The first element of the orisis whioh was to bring about suoh great results was the existence of Fenianism.

tut am not aware tnat -ner Majesty's government are peculiarly responsible for the existence of Fenianism. (Hear, hear.) When we acceded, under the auspices of Lord Derby, to office two short years ago, FenianiBm existed, and the suspension of tho liberties of the people of Ireland had taken place under the auspices and advice of the right hon. gentleman. (Oheei He was himself a member of the Council to which the fatal secret of Fenianism was first communicated, and he came down to the house to propose those extra legal remedies with whioh the country is" only too fanAiliar. Thia rwaB the first element of the orisis, and so far as that was 'concerned the right hon.

gentleman did not feel justified in coming down to parliament to recommend the violent course whioh was Bhadowed forth by his oration of this evenine. The risrht hon. gentleman then gave us another the crisis. What was it Insh emigration- Irish emigration brought about by the critical state of affairs and demanding a most violent remedy. True, the right hon.

gentleman admitted that emigration has somewhat flubsided, that it has been greater than it ia at present, and when there was a thinning of the Irish; population that excited considerable alarm in the country. But who was one of the most influential ministers of the crown during that period? Why, the right hon. gentleman, and with respeot to two elements of the crisis, the right hon. gentleman was as silent as a mouse, never alluding to this suppression of the ohuroh of Ireland, an institution whioh'he had previously with So muoh eloquence defended. During that time he never alluded to the course wbioh he now thinks indispensable.

There was a third element of the orisis it was the education of the people of Ireland. But the people of Ireland were not merely educated yesterday: the people of Ireland have had the advantage of a system of education more favourable than that of England for a considerable number of years. The consequences of that education, the benefioial oonseqnenoes, have been perceptible for the last ten years, during whioh the right hon. gentleman never came forward to announce that the results of that education had produced a crisis whioh required the sudden application of violent remedies. But there was one more element whioh was necessary to complete all the ingredients of the crisis it was the Parliamentary Beform Bill, which although it had baffled all the efforts of the right hon.

gentleman, we were so fortunate as to pass last year. These were the four elements of orisis enumerated by the right hon. gentleman, and the result of the crisis produced is that we are to destroy the Irish ohuroh. (Hear.) We will consider the question of the destruction of the Irish ohurch at the right time, but that is not the logical consequence whioh I derive from the passing of the Beform Bill. My logical consequence is that we ought as soon as possible to pass alio a Beform Bill for Ireland.

(Hear.) That bill, aa theright hon. genHe-man admits, has been prepared, and would have been introduced to-night if this debate had Yet, these ara the four ingredients which the right hon, gentleman brrngsforwaidasproduoingthat state of affairs, whioh he describes as a crisis in Ireland, all those elements being somewhat of an obsolete character, or having no relation whatever to the course whioh he recommends. The right hon. gentleman next said ho would be glad to hear from us something on the subjeot of ecclesiastical titles and on Irish railways, but I think that the house will not on an occasion like the present expeot us to dwell on topics of that kind. The right hon.

gentleman has given a notice'on the subjeot of the EcolesiaBtical Titles Bui, and when he makeB his motion we shall be prepared to give him the required information. Neither shall we now enter upon the subject of Irish railways. The right 'hon. gentleman assumes that we have been negligent on the subjeot, but all I can say is that it is no easy task at any time to form an efficient royal commission. We have, formed nffinient roval commission, which I believe has per formed its duty with great energy and ability, and will-within a reasonable time, be able to advise parliament ana her Majesty's government on this important subject.

The right hon. gentleman next directed his attention 1 to those measures which had been prepared by governmet, and whioh he said did not realise the position of affairs as regarded the orisis in Ireland. The first measure to whioh the right hon. gentleman direoted his attention was one for which legislation may probably not be necessary namely, that of recommending ner Majesty to grant a charter to a Roman catholio university in Dublin. The right hon.

gentleman raised an objection to the proposition, which may have some effect upon the house, on the assumption that we had announced our intention to endow that university. (Hear, hear;) Osrtainlywe never heard of that endowment before. Ob, A noble lord who spoke early thisevenmg attacked tbe government because, in proposing a charter, we had not also remised an endowment. My noble friend the ecretary for Ireland made no suoh proposition, nor was there any necessary he spoke of nothing but an honourable engagement not to move further in that matter without parliamentary authority, It was perfectly true that my noble friend 'spoke of the country having to pay the university expenses. It is a very legitimate question tor tne nonse to deoids whether tney will vote this expense as not.

It ia not a very great amount, i oeuevo tue uaee oi tne lxmaon University it is now about I do not suppose that any sum like that would be required, bat it would be perfeotly legitimate, of course, for the house, if a charter is granted, to refuse the grant of publio money to the Roman catholio university. The reason we have proposed a ohar-ter to a Boman catholio university has been very inuoh misunderstood in the course of this debate. "The member lor Binhtaghaiu said that our' cure' for. Fe-aianism was granting a charter to a Eoman catholio mNmnttm see have not aumoient experience DUt i wouia oeg to poup out to mv hon. friend that if in the course of the changes toliBftdontad with reeard to the Irish church the state should beoome possessed, in truat for what purposes I do Ao not now ask.

of the ecclesiastical estates -of Ireland. those estates being in the hands of the oivil. power, would at once afford an opportunity, it it snouia seem to be wise and politic, to give a fair consideration to the plan. (Cheers and I am afraid that hon. gentlemen may tmnK tnat i want to oeg tne question witn regard to the possession of these ecolesiastioal estates bat i I am coming to that now.

(Cheers.) With respect to that question, I may Bay that it has been with a satisfaction almost equalled by my surprise, that I have witnessed the- extraordinary progress of opinion, both within and without the whether measured Dy tne arguments ana tne tone 01 tnose who recommend the proposed change, or by the argumenta and tone of those who resist it. In fact, I think that per-hapB the greater encouragement is to be drawn from the latter. (Hear, and laughter.) My right hon. friend the Chief Secretary for India, if I gathered hia meaning aright, haa one argument, and one argument only, for maintaining the atate church in Ireland and that ie, if the state ehuiph in Ireland be removed the state bhu'rch in England will be endangered. (An expression of dissent.

am not protesting against tne argument at all I am only endeavouring to state it. Says ii-ni vi --a-i in IIAIW UUU AIUU. (ABAI VAC1A1A11, A II AAA MUlAvA VUCAU M1.W..W1. there are parishes in England whore the dissenters are in a large majority, and if you show me that the Eoman nnthnlinsnrflmttiar-amaioritvin Ireland, a nation is like a parish, and whatever change you admit into the nation of i Tlln-J Areianaypu must uuuuv ami iuw bue inuuui aai juugAwuu. Rut nhM'tii armffient as von will.

I will onlT savthat in my opinion those who wish to preserve the churoh of England in that position, dignity of stability and utility whioh she now holds, will do well to found her claims upon the labours she performs, upon the services which she renders, and upon the affectione Bhe attracts from the great mass of the people (including that vast number within her communion, and no small number of those that are beyond her pale), and will not do. wisely to. venture her fortunes in the arK otsuon ora-yargnmentsasinatineargu-ments which annlv to the established churoh of Ireland with its handful of adherents must apply to the ohurch of England with its millions upon millions of devoted followers. (Cheers.) I seek to call the attention, of the house to what appears to me a point of great importance. We have reached a stage in the progress of thiB controversy.

Mark the statement of the nohle lord. "Preserve the established ohuroh. make the consolidated fund tributary to the universities of particular oommunions and denominations, and to their oolleges." But that is not all. There was also a significant and ominous intimation with regard to the presby-terian communion. The Begium Donum," Baid the noble lord, ia miserable in amount, utterly unsuited to itn mimosa." What.

sir. ia the seauitur of that state ment? That the Begium Donum ia to be increased by a proposal of the government on the nrat favouraoie opportunity, and I have not the least doubt that if the Begium Donum were inoreased, and there were a fear of thereby AYoitint? a sharnar sense of ineaualitv on the part of the Eoman catholio population, all the dangers of that class' would be conjured by tne government in some mana assurance to the effeot that thev were not indisposed to make the large resources of this country directly contributory to the support ot the Koman catnono t-iear, hear.) What is the meaning of all this? Will my right lion, friend the member for Stroud nermit to offer a verbal criticism on one atriking passage in his speech He said that the policy ot the government on tne onurcn establishment waB to be a policy of inaction. Oh, no, sir. Hitherto we have maintained the establishment as we found it. We have maintained the BegiurDonum as we found it, and we have not applied the resources of the exchequer to maintain apeoial universities.

But the doctrine now is that these universitiea must be endowed, that the fiegium Donum must be increased, that the colleges, if the matter oan bo arranged in detail, must be sustained, that burden upon burden must be laid upon the people of the country in order that we may be enabled to enjoy, the blessing and the luxury of maintaining the ohuroh establishment in Ireland, (ijoua oneers.j i aonoiunaer-take to determine the relative importance of the questions of ohurch and land in Ireland. To me it appears that both are vital. (Hear, hear.) There is a story told or Kina William III. when he came into thia country, and when the Scottish biahopa came to see him he was by no means averSB to them or their episcopacy he asked them whether they would support him, and the deputy of the Snntt.iTi hiahnnn Tenlied. "Tour Maiestv.

we will suprjort you as far as honour and conscience will allow uaj" which rightly interpreted to mean, "we will not support you.at Si;" Whereupon he answered, "Gentlemen, I oannot swim with one hand." He had the support of the authorities in England, and he wanted that of the authorities in Scotland, and he delicately intimated that if they would not support him they must ceaaeto be authorities. (A Jaiigh.) Well, sir, the polioy of the government cannot swim with one hand. Both the church and the land are vital questions. The plaims of the one as against the other I do not care to argue. T.Af unlnnlr nt the case of the church, and consider the dila tory policyof her Majesty's government.

First of all? there is a commission. (Laughter.) I will be still more liberal in my concessions, and admit that a commission was moved for by Lord Busselli, Whata godsend to the government hna naan that commission. (Lauehter.) Why, three- fourths of the whole argument has not consisted in the machinery or funotione of the churoh, the office of the ohurch to uphold the truth, or any of those elevated topics consecrated to the support of the ohurch in former times but three-fourths of the argument have been aup-nlied hv the existence of thia commission, and Lord -Piiall lioino. TirniArnfani? fcn bA thn nnronn who is resnon. Bible for the state of faots in which we stand, and by winch' we are forbidden by the government to entertain the question of the Irish churoh at the present moment.

Now, by a lain bill I will endeavour to do away with; t.hia ffndRAnri. The sovernment. not determined by any thing that is passing in its own mind, but unfortunately by this wise declaration of Lord BuaseH, appear to have gotallhisspeeoh by heart, except this deolaration.whioh I am about to quote. Lord Russell said on the 24th of June, 1867, in making his motion, Parliament would do ill if It flirl not -nrnnare itself bv everv nossible means for the full consideration of the subject in the early part of next session." (A conservative cheer.) Is Lord Bussell, then, to' be responsible for its postponement to 1869? Perhaps the hon. gentleman who oheered thinks he is, as next session is 1869 but thia was inp.867.

and the next session to that of 1867 ia evidently 1868. (Laughter.) There is no reason why Bix months should not have amply sufficed tohavegatheredallthe information that was wanted or that could, be useful in order to place parliament in full possession of the whole oase, so far as matters of faot are conoerned. There is not a faot whioh the ooimnisBion will produoe that can affect the determination which I am persuaded is entertained by a large majority of thia house. (Cheers.) The commission may Bettle questions for those who want to determine whether the surplus or no surplus amounts to thia or that sum, or how the revenues now posseBsed by tne inan escaDusnment suouiu be redistributed within its own borders. But these arq recommendations utterly irrelevant and imma terial to those wno approaon tne question in a uiaibiouu anirit.

ihn admit all von can Bav -with resbeot to the l-merits or the personal excellence of the ministers of the estaDUBhwent, tne elevation oi tneir onarttoper, tuo puriuy of tneir lives, ana tne zeai witn wmcn Hieyuovm-ci. selves to their duties, but who take this objeotion to the Irish phurplj, not on aooount of any particular property it presents fa us, but on account of its essehbe'and' Mb existence1: the oommisaion is irrelevant for the purpose of this debate; Then, to eke out the commission, there is a speeoh made by me in 1865. The right hon. gentleman the Seoretary of State for the Home; Depart-, ment referred to that speech in terms of great reapeot and goodwill, beoause unless I am roiBtaken whether it did the Irish or the liberal party any good, it did him some good in assisting him towards the attainment of that seat ia which he so; zealously and ably discharges his duties. I have looked baok to the debate in whioh that speech ocourred, and measuring the oiroumstanceBof that day with those of the present I am able to estimate the immense alterations, and what I humbly presume to call the immense progress and advancement of opinion which has taken place.

(Hear, hear.) The motion was one whioh only asserted that the condition of the Irish ohuroh establishment was unsatisfactory, and required the early attention of her Majesty's government. I do not know whether the hon. member for Swansea, who made the motion, is in the house but my hon. friend the or seconded it, will reoolleot the tone of the house and the proposed on the subject at that moment and I don think my hon. friend the member for Tralee, whose sentiments were well known, ventured to trenqh on the subjeot of a commiasion.

(Hear, hear.) But as for me, I ventured to state that that was a question for the future, and that in my opinion it was not the duty of. a minister of the orown knowingly and voluntarily to promote agitation in the public mind upon any question except one on which he was prepared in Ma responsible character aa a minister to deal with. (Cheers.) I -therefore take no credit for having made a speech such I might now make on the subject ot tne measures vaanaai 4 IU if Tl-AIIinil. Ttllt. while BettlllE OTth the impossibility of maintaining permanently thejehurott of Ireland as it was, I did not 'use one word to my knowledge on that occasion which wa- dontrwy to the opinion, held then and hold nqw that in order to the settlement of the qneBfaqn ot the ohoh, that ohuroh as a atate churoh muBt oease to exist.

(Lond oheers,) Now, sir, this not an oMasion on whioi itiis Mqui-ite to enter into a lengthy argument on the subjeOT, ofwawutli in Ireland but I will quote a passage troi mmmmmm wted some time from the report, and I few that nothing what reception buoS. a plan would xeoeive, invnang.