Chicago Tribune from Chicago, Illinois • 1

CAG-O BY PRESS AND TRIBUNE CO. CHICAGO, TUESDAY MORNING, SEPTEMBER 21, 1858. VOLUME NUMBER G9. PRESS AN v. 1 discussing tbe questions of tbat doty all over and msde a second speech, and brought forward new evidence.

What was the new evidence? PRESS AND TRIBUNE. "tCESDAT EOSKING, SEPTEKBEB 21, 1858 tion of tbe constitution, shall be obligatory npon the United States and the said State of of Kansas." Now, if it is said that this is a forgery, we will open the paper here and see whether it is or not. Again. Trambnll savs as he goes along, that Mr. Bigler made the following statement in his place in the Senate, December 9, 1857 Iwas prewnt when that snbjeet was discussed by Senators before the -ill vu iotro'inced.

Kid the qu- stin raised and duwussed, whether ecnntitatioa. when formed, ehou be Buuniitte'l to of the people. It wan held tlKwemo-t inteiticrent on the subject, that in view of all the dmcnltiei anrronDdirgtha Territorj, the of any exp nment at ttat time of a pouplar vote. It would be better tbere Bho.td be no auch provuioo ia the T-onibV bilL and it wis my nrtderstand ar, hi ai tbe intercourje I had. hat the eonve-ition would make a constitution, and it here without aobmittuis it to the popular vote." Then Trumbull follows on: "In speaking of "this meeting again on the Slst Deoember, 1857, Congressional Globe, same VOL page 113) Senator Bigler said as the question was asked me I thought I wonld occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in rcgird to it.

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been iu favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, applause that I am not nor have been in favor of making voters or of netrroes, nor of qualifying them to hold nor to intermarry with white and I say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races together on terms of uoeial and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, I as much asany man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the while race. I say upon occasion I do not pereeive that because white man is to have the superior position the should tie denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not waut a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her a wife. Cheers and laughter.

My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am in mv fiftieth year and I certainly never had a black woman for either a slave or a So it seems to me quite possible for us to along without making either slaves or of negroes. I will add to this that have never seen to my knowledge a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. 1 recollect of bat one distinguished instance that I ever beard of so frequently as to be entirely satisfied of its correctness and that is the ease of Judge Douglas friend CoL Richard M. Johnson.

Laughter snd cheers. I will also add to the few remarks I have made, (for 1 am not going to enter at large upon tbis subject,) that I have nev bnt hairing exgnmoa abieet view. That was tlie defeat ot ail the men holding Union principles in opimsition to this Almliti.m Sectional party. When they assembled at Springfield, having came 1 the Lesislainre in their favor, they proceeded to elect a United States Sen-otor. All voted far Mr.

Lincoln as their choice, with one or twi exceptions. Bnt they couldn't quite elect him. And why eoaldn't tbey elect him Had not Trambnll agreed tbat be should have Shields' place Had not the Abolitionists agreed to it? Was not that asol-emn compact? Was not that the condition npon which Lincoln waa to abohtiooix the old Whigs, that he should be the Senator Bat still Trumbull, having control of few abolition Democrats, wouldn't allow them all to vole for Lineola at any one time, aad thas tbey could ran him up almost to election, but not quite aad tbea rua him agaia and drop him dowo notil they wearied him and hia friends so that they dropped Lincoln entirely snd elected Trwanbuil in viol.Uoa of the bargain. Sow I desire to offer a bit of testimony in confirmation of that notorious fact. ColJaa.

H. Matheny ef Springfield ia. and for twenty years has been, tbe eowbdea-tial, personal and political friend aad manager for Lincoln. Matheny is at thia very day a Candidate of the Republican-Abolition party against the gallant Major Thomas L. Harris, in the Springfield district, and it making apeechea for Lincoln against me.

Now let me read yon the testimony of Matheny about tbis bargain between Lincoln and Trambnll, when ther undertook to abolrtioeixe the Wbigs aad Demo, era la, only four years ago. Matheay, in a pnblic speech two rears ago, being mad because Trumbull played a Yankee trick on Lincoln, explained the whole bargain ia a speech which I will read, and the correctness of which Lineola will aot deny. Matheny aaya: Tin Wlriga, AbohtVinlsr. Knew KMhtnes an renegade hrm crats ade a solenia compact for tile purpos. of cax-Trimr this Stale agsinst the lemtx-rwy on fnUpIan: 1st.

That Ihey 11 co-ctine and elect Mr Trambnll toCongres. and thereby csrrv his lilrict for he Lewis arore. bv order to all the streugui that on be obtained to Uiat body toe item crau 2L That when tr Legislature sVu-ld met. the officers of that eody. such as siread-ers.

eleika doorkeepsrs hr- wookl be given to the Ab.ri. tiooi'ts: and 1. Tl te Whig were tu hav the Unite I Stares Seaator. That. rrd truly, Trumbull wa.

el-cte'1 in good faltrt Congress ard bis District earned for tee LeiisUtar. and when eoaveoed. th- Abo itionils got all the tmcers of tnat body and thus the "pood" was was parti, executed. Tbe hies on tbeir part demand. tbe election af brsttas.

Lincoln so the United 8 Senate, that lee bend might be fulfilled, the oilier p. ttsto tiie contract having al-resdj secured to themselves .11 that was railed icr. Brt In the st rBdious asafiner they rsfiaw to elect. Lincoln, and the mean, low-bred, sneaking TruuWaU soe-ceeiie-t by pledging ah that was r-quired auy party. In thrusting Lincoln aside and ist'ng himself, an excre scence from the rot en bowel, of the Ileenaeraoy to tbe CnHed Suttee Senale: a-vd sans it ats been lht an bonrs a.aj makes a bad baigaia when he oonsolre.

or conferring the rights and privileges of citizenship apon the Legro. I have beea trying to get sn answer from him on this pwiat, bet I have never yet obtained it, and 1 will show you why. In nearly every speech ha msde is the North, he quoted the Declaration of Independence to prove that all men were born free) and equal, and that meant tbe aecro aa wed aa the white man; that tbeir equality rested en the Divine Uw. 1 will read what be aaid upon point. "I should like." Mr.

Lineoin said, to know it yoa take this old Dec ar. Hon which declares tbat all men are created eqnsi and make exception to it, where will it stop? If one man savs it don't roeaa a negro, why not another say it doesn't mean a white man?" Hence, Mr. Lineoin asserted that tha Declaration ot lndependerce declared that tbe negro was the equal of the white maa, and that too by divine law, being endowed by his creator with certain ica ienahie rights. Now if he believes that bv the divine law be was oar equal, it was certain be she-old advocate negro citixenship. And wbea yoa rant negro ciiisenshtn, then yoa have pot them on an equality under the lair.

I say to yoa, gentlemen, in all frankness, that in my'opinioa a negro is not a citizen, cannot and ought not to be nnder the Constitution of the United. Slates. 1 would not even qualify mv opinion, although the Supreme Court in tbe Dred Scott ease aay that a negro descended of African parents and imported into this country as a slave, is act, cannot and ought aot to bo a citisen. I say tbat this Government was created on the white basts by hite mea for white anrxt and their posterity forever, and shnuld never be administered by any hot waite man. I declare that aae-roouglit out to be a etc sen wiietiier imported this country or born here, whether uls parents were slaves or not.

It don't depend npon the question where he was lorn, or where-his parents were placed, but it depends on the lact that the ticirio belongs to a race iocapahie of sell-government, and lor that reason ooebt not to be put on an equality with the white nun. Applause. Now, my friends, I ant sorry that 1 have nut tune to parse that argument further, which 1 could have dooe bat for tbe fact tbat Mr. Lincoia compelled toe to occopy a portion of time in repelling tnut rroea, slanderous falsehood that Trumbull invented, aad circulated against me. Let me ask you, why should this country divide itself by geographical line, arraying all mea north of it into one great hostile party againat all meaaouth of of it.

Mr. Liecoin tells yon in his speech at Springfield that a house divided against itself cannot stand that tbe government cannot ea-dare permanently divided into free States aad slave Slates that tbevmnat be all one wayorall other, or this government cannot endure permanently. Wby, let me ask, cannot this government endure forever divided into free and slave States, as our fathers msde it When this governeaeat was established by Washington aad Madison aad Jay and Hamilton, and the sages of that day, it was composed of tree States and slave States, bound together by oar common Constitution. We have existed and prospered from thst day to this, divided into these free snd sieve Slates. Dcring thst whole period, we hsve increased wi a rapidity never yet knowa, ia wealth, ia the expansion of territory, in tbe elements of power and greatoeea, until we have become tha first nation on the face of the globe.

hy cannot are thus continue to prosper if we live and continue to execute tbe government in thst spirit and in accordance with those principles npon which cur lathers placed it. Daring that whole period Divine Providence baa ttni'ta apon oa and showered upon tbis aatioa richer aad more abundant blesstnga than were ever conferred apoa any people oa the lace of the globe. Load applaascj there. If there be anv controversy upon the sense of the words whether these words which were stricken out really constituted a provision for submitting the matter to a vote ot tbe people, as thst is a matter ot argument, I think I may as well use Trumbull's own argument. He says that the proposition is in these words That the followinir and the same ar hersby offered to said con.er uon of tne people of Kansas when formed.

fr their free acceptance or rejection wh'ch if accepted by tin. uiui raHped by the jMttple at tits elei tuin jor the ndption o.r tUs glial! be obligatory apon the Lulled S.ales and the ia'd State of uuaa. Sow Trumbull alleges that these last words were stricken out of the bill when it came back, and he says this was a provision for submitting tbe Constitution to a vote of the people, and bis argument is tbis: Would it have been possible to ratify the land propositions at tte election for the adoption of the Constitution, on-" less snch an election was to be held." Applause and laughter. That is Trumbull's argument. Mow Judge Douglas does not meet the charge at all, but he stands up and says there was no Buch proposition in thet bill for submitting the Constitution to be framed to a vote of tbe people.

Trumbull admits tbat the language ia not a direct provision for submitting it, but it is a provision necessarily implied from another provision. He asks you how it is possible to ratify the land proposition at the election for the adoption of the Constitution, if there wis no election to be held for the adoption of the Constitution. And be goes on to show that it is not anv less a law because the provision is put in that indirect shape than it would be if it was put directly. Bat 1 presume 1 have said enough to draw attention to tbis point and I pass it by also. Another one of the points that Jodge Donglas makes upon Trnmbll and at very great length ia, tbat Trumbull, while tbe bill was pending, in a speech in the Senate that he Constitution to be made would have to be submitted to tbe people.

He asks, if Trumbull thought so, what reason there is now for any to suppose tbe contrary. He asks, it Trumbull thought so then, what ground is there for anybody thinking otherwise now? Fellow citizens, this much may be said in reply tbat bill been in tbe bands of a party to which Trumbull did not belong. It Lad been in the hands tbe committee at the head of which Judge Donglaa stood. Trumbud perhaps had a printed copy of the original Toombs bill. 1 have not evidence on that point, except a sort of in ference I draw from tbe general course of business there.

What alterations, or what provisions in the way of altering, were going on in Committee, Trumbull had no means of knowing, until the altered bill was reported back. Soon afterwards, when it wss reported back there was a discussion over it, and perhaps Trumbull in reading it hastily in tbe altered did not perceive all the bearings of the alterations. He was hastily borne into the debate and it does not follow that because there something in it Trumbull did not perceive, something did not exist- More than this, it true that 'what Trambnll did can have any effect on what Donglas did Applause. Suppose Trumbull had been in the plot with these other men, would that let Douglas out of it Applause and laughter, Wonld it exonerate Douglas that Trumbull didn't then perceive he in the plot? He also asks the question didn'i Trnmball propose to amend the bill be thought it needed any amendment? Wby, believe that everything Jodge Trumbull bad proposed, particularly in connection with this question of Kansas and Nebraska since he bad been on the floor of the Senate, had been promptly voted down by Judge Douglas and bis friends. He had so promise, tbat an amendment offered by him to any thing on this subject wonld receive the slightest consideration.

Judge Trumbull did bring to the notice of the Senate at that time the fact that there was no provision for submitting the Constitution abcut be made for the people of Kansas, to a vote the people. 1 believe I may venture to say Judge Douglas made some reply to this speech ot Judge Trumbull's, but kenevtr noticed part of tt at And so tbe thing passed I think, then, tbe fact that Judge Trumbull offered no amendment, does not throw much blame UDOn him and if it did, it does not reach the Whips like a man on every question that separated the Whig party from the liemncnttk- party. I had the highest respect tor Henry lay as a gallant party leader, an eminent statesman and one of tbe leading men of this cormiry, and I conscientiously thoeght that the Democratic party was right on the question which separated Whies from Democrats. Hence a man don't lire tbat can say that 1 ever personally assaulted Henry Clay, or Daniel Webster, or any one of tbe leaders ef that great party, while I was eombatting with so much energy tbe measures that ther advocated. What did we differ about aa Wbigs and Democrat in those day? Did we differ about thi slavery question On the contrary, did we not in lo.rO, Wbigs and Democrats, unite to a man ia favor ef tbat system of Compromise Measures which Mr.

Cley introduced, which Webster advocated, whicb Cass supported, and which fillmore approved snd made a law by his signature? While we agreed on these measures, we diff ered about Bank, about the Tariff and about Distribution, and the Specie Circular, and tbe Sub-Treasnry, and other questions of tbat description. Now, let me ask yoa, wbat one of these questions, on which Whies and Democrats then differed, now remains to divide the two great parties Every one of these questions, about which Whig and Democrats then differed, has passed away. The eoantry has outgrown these, snd tbey hare become obsolete ideas, aad have passed into history. Hence it ia immaterial whether yoa did right or 1 did right on tbe Bank, ear on "the Tariff, or on Distribution, or oa the Specie Circular, or on tbe bub-Treasury, for tbey no longer continue Irving issues between parties. What then has taken the place of tnose questions about which we differ.

The slavery question has now become the leading aad controlling iasoe. it quest 10a on which yoa and I agreed, on Want, the Whigs aad the Democrats were united, bad now become the leading issae between the National Democracy on tbe one aide snd this Ke-publican Abolition party on the other. Just recollect for a moment that memorable contest of 1850, by which this country was sgitated from it centre to its circumference by slavery agitation. All eyes tbea turned to tbe three great lights that ourvived from the days of the Revolution. They looked to Cl.y, then in retirement at Ashland, to Webster, tbea in the Senate, and to Cass, also a member of the U.

S. Senate. Clay had retired to Ashland, having, as he supposed, performed hia mission on earth, and was prepared tor a better sphere of existence in another world. And in that retirement be heard the discordant, harsh, grating sounds of sectional strife striking apon his ears. He armed and came forth from his retirement aad resumed his seat in the Sea-ate of the United States, that great theater of his great deeds.

From tbe moment tbat Clay arrived among as he became the leader of all a ion men, whether Whies or Democrats. For nine months we assembled each day in the council chamber, with Clay in tne chair, and Cass upon bis right hand, and Webster on his left, and the Democrats and the Whigs arrayed on the one Bide and on tbe other, all forgetting their partisan differences, and all animated by one patriotic sentiment, and that one to devise means and measures that could defeat the main revolutionary schemes of Northern AboliLiouists and Southern Disumtm-ists. Applause, and cries of Good f'J We did devise means. Clay brought them forward Webster advocated them Cass defended tbem the Union Democrats aud the Union Wbigs voted for them Fillmore t-ig ed them, and they gave peace aud quiet to the country. These compromise measures of l.s 'si were founded on the gieat fundamental principle, that the people of -Jadi State and of each Territory ought to be left frue to form and regulate their own domestic institutions to suit themselves, subject only to the Fetkeral Constitution.

Applause. Now let me ask every Old Line and every Old Line Whig, within the hearing of my voice, if I have not truly stated the issues as they then presented themselves to the country. Yoa recollect that the Abolitionist, raised a wild bowl of vengeance and destruction against the Democrats and the Whigs both, who suppui-ted those compromise measures of 1S50. When 1 returned home to Chicago that year, I found the city infuriated and inflamed with vengeance against the author ot these great measures. Being the only man in that city who was held responsible tor affirmative votes on each of these measures, I went forward and faced the assembled inhabitants ot the city of Chicago and defended each aad every one of Clav'a compromise measures as they passed tbe Senate and tbe House and were approved by President Fillmore.

Previous to that time, the City Council had passed resolutions nullifying tbe acts of Congress and instructing the police to withhold all assistance in their execution. But tbe people of Chicago listened to my defence, and like candid, frank, conser this state with air. Lincoln and air. Trambnll. He was as silent as the grave on the Question then.

11 that charge was true, the time to hsve brought it forward was the canvass ot '56 the year when tbe Toombs bill passed the Senate wben tbe facts were iresn tbe noonlar mind when the Kansas question was a prominent oao ot tbe day, and wben it would have a material bearing on that election, if true. Why did tbey remain silent then? Knowing: that such a charge could be made and proved, if it was) true, were they not false to yon, false to the country, to have gone through that entire campaign, concealing tbe charge of this enormous conspiracy which 1 rumbull says he then knew ana would not ten. nr. Lincoln intimates his speech a good reason why Trnmball would not tell, for be says it may be true, as I proved at Jacksonville, that Trnmball was also in the plot. Mr.

Lincoln goes on to argne tha if Trnmball was in the plot, that did not relieve any more than if he was on trial for murder wou ld not relieve him if another man was detected during the trial to hare been a party to same crime, en, air. Trumbull then was in the plot and then concealed it in order to escape the odium upon himself, I ask, are yon believe him now, wben he turna State's evi dence, and avows ha own lnlamy in order to implicate me with ban I am amazed that Mr. Lincoln could come forward now and indorse that charge, and occupy his whole time in reading Trumbull's speech in support of it. Why, ask, didn't Mr. Lincoln maaie a speech of bis own, instead of occupying the whole time ia reading from the speech at Alton.

1 had supposed that Mr. LiLUjlfl waa capable of making public speech on bia own account, or else 1 should not have accepted his banter from him ioint if I had suoDoaed the whole time was to ire occupied iu reauing Trum- bull's speech instead 01 his own. I Applause j. A Voice Why oon't yon reply to the Judos Douglas. Sir, don't yoa trouble yourself, gentlemen; I am going to make a speech in my own way, aud 1 trust that as the Democrats listened patiently to air.

Lincoln, that his friends will not interrupt me when 1 am speaking. Now, I propose to arst state the charge in Trnmbult's own language. Mr. Trumbull, returning from tbe Lait, landed at the thing ne did was to make a speech, wholly devoted to assaults upon my publio character, wish to call your atieniioa to tbe fact tbat np tbat time 1 had never alluded to Mr. Trumbull, directly or indirectly, nor to his coarse in Congees.

Hence his aesautts on tue were entirely without provecatiou, without excuse, and aince that he has been traveling from one end of btate to tbe other, repeating this same rue charge. 1 will read it now in hia own language: "Now. fellow citizens, I make the distinct eharge that there ws a preconcerted urangriiient and plot enter a by the very men wh now ciaim credit fcr 01 poeiog-a not nhmiUed to tne people, to have a Consillutio lormed and put in force without giving the peopl? an opporluni'y to pass upon it. This, my friends. serious cnarge.

but I charge it to-night, that the very who traverse the country under banners proclaiming popular sovereignty, by dengu concocted a bill on pur. poe to force a Constitution utou that people." Again, speaking to tome one la the crowd, he ays: "And yoa want to satisfy yon elf that h. was In tbe plottofo-cea onstitution upm tbat people? I will sat-lsfy yon. 1 will cram the ttuth down a.y nonett man', throat, until he cnnot deny It. and to the man who doe.

deny it, 1 will cram the Lie down his throat tut be shall enough Here is the polite language of Senator Trum-bnll applied to bis colleague when I was a hundred miles off. Why didn't he apply it in the Senate and cram the lie down my throat, wben I did deny to Bigler, and made him take it back? Applause. Yoa all recollect how Bigler assaulted when I was engaged in that hand to hand fight resisting a scheme to put a constitution upon the people of Kansas against their will. Bigler then assaulted me, and I turned npon him and made him take the back track and explain hie conduct the country, and there was not an honest man America that would pretend it was trne. Trumbull was then present face to face with me.

Why didn't he then rise and make the charge and say that be could cram the lie down my throat? Applause. lteli you that Trumbull then knew it was a lie. He knew that Toombs denied that there ever was a clause in that bill when he brought it forward of the tenor of which now charges, and wuk-b he says required the Constitution to be submitted to the people. I will now tell you all the facts in regard to that question. I had introduced a bill to authorize the people of Kansas to form a Constitution and come into the Union as a State whrnever they should have the requisite population for a member of Congress.

Toombs introduced a bill to authorize the people of Kansas to then, with only 25,000 people, form 1 Constitution come in at that time, and tbe issue was whether we should allow them in with 25,000, or whether we should require them to have tbe ratio for a member of Congress, to wit, 93,420. That was the point of debate in the committee. I was overruled my proposition to have S3.000 was over-ruled, anu Toombr proposition to let them in was substituted in its pftce and accordingly a bill to carry out Toombs' of immediate admission was reported as a substitute for mine, but the only point at issue was this question of population, and tbe fixing of proper safeguards as to frauds at the election. Now, Mr. Trumbull knew these to be the facts the whole Senate knew them to be tbe facts, and hence he was silent at tbat time.

But waited until I wax in this canvass with Mr-Lincoln, and found that I was allowing up Mr. Lincoln's Abolitionism and Negro Equality. Applause. 1 was driving Mr. Lincoln to the wall until wuite men would not tolerate his rank Abolitionism, and they sent for Trumbull to come back, and they framed a system of charges against me to compel me occupy my entire time in defending myseli, so that I could sot show np the enormity of the Abolition Black Republican party's principles.

Now, the whole ebject of this time today being occupied in an issue between Trumbull and me by Mr. Lincoln, is to conceal from this vast audience the discussion ot tbe questions that divide the two great parties. I am not going to allow tbem to take np much of my time by these transient matters. 1 have lived in this State twenty-five years. most of the time, have been in public life.

My record is open to yea all, and if that record is not enough to vindicate me against these petty, math-ions assaults, I despair ever te elected to office by slandering my opponent and traducing ether men. Mr. Lincoln asks yon today for your support in electing him to tbe Senate solely because ne ana 1 rnmoau can slander me. fias ne given any otacrr ewni as to wnat ne is going to do on any one question in Congress He attempts to nae lnrocmoe not apon is own merits, or the merit and soundness of his own principles, but npon his success in fastening that stale old slander npon his opponent. Now I wish yon to bear in mind tnat on to tbe time of this Toombs bill snd afterwards, there never has been an act of Congress for the ad mis- sion of a new State which contained a clause re quiring tbe constitution to be submitted to the neonle.

The general role was that the constitu tion be silent on tnis snuiect, taxing it lor granted that the people tbernslves would demand and compel a vote on tue ranncauonoi ineir constito tion. inasmocn as tnat sao oeen tne rule under Washington, snd Jefferson, and Madison, and Jackson, aud Polk, under the Whig Presidents, and under the iwmocrauc presidents, from the besnnnms of tne uovernment down, nobody ever drea ted that the effort wonld be made to abase the power thus confided to the people of a Terri tory, or inese reasons, attention was not called to the tact of whether there waa or was not clause compelling submission bat it was taken for ranted that tbe constitution would be sub mitted to the people, whether the taw compelled it or not. And now I will read from the report inade by me as chairman of the committee at the time that the xoomos bin was reported 1 reported back the substitute, bnt, as I have said, it contained several clauses which 1 voted sgainst in committee, but being overrated, as chairma-i, reported back all those agreed to. and on; thing, aud the main point I bad been overruled in, was the question of population. In tbe written report Containing tne Tootnos diu, 1 saia 1 "In tbe opinion of yoar committee whenever a constitution snail be lormed in aay Territory preparatory to its admission into the Union as a slate, justice, tne genius Of oor institutions, tbe whole theory of oar republican system im peratively demands that the voice of the peo- shall be fairly expressed, sad their will em.

odied in that fundamental law withont fraud or violence, or intimidation, or any other im proper or unlawful influence and subject to so other restrictions than those imposed by the VVIBHl.uuu wi 1 1 Here yoa find that tbe committee took it for arrantea tnat unoer tnat oiu tne te be submitted to toe people whether the bill waa silent on the subject or not. Now, suppose I had reported it silent on the subject, foU tbe example 01 vfasnmgtoa and jener son, and Monroe, and Adams, and Jackson, and Harrrison. Tyler, ana roik, and Fillmore, and Pierce, woaid tbat tact have beea evidenee of a conspiracy to pot a constitution on the people against their wuu A Voice No, sir. Junes D009U. if the charge be trne thst Mr.

Lincoln makes against me, it is trne against Millard Fillmore tree against Zachary tavlor troa against every nig rreaiqent as well atrain8t every Democratic President. It is true againat Henry ciav, who had Beeq in tbe senate, and ia tbe House tor fifteen years, aad advocat ed these very nuts, ne one ot them ever con tained a clanse compelling submission to the people. Now are Messrs. Lincoln and Trnmball prepared to charge npon all these eminent mea tromthe begioningofthegovernmentdown to this day, that tbe absence af a proviaioa compelling submissioa is evidence ot a corrupt design to foreef a Constitution on an nnwiilmg people. 1 ask yoa to renect on things, tor 1 tell yea, here is a conspiracy to carry an election sy manner or net oy tarr means.

Mr. Lincoln's speech this day is conclusive evidence ol tne laat. Bedeiotes the enure time to an issue between me aad Trambnll, and not a word on the politics of the day. Are yoa going to etect lrumouu colleague on an 1 between Trambnll and ane I thought I running against Abraham Lincoia. Laughter.

1 tboaaht atr. unoota intended to be my oppo nent; I thought Mr. Lincoln was discussing the pnblic questions of the day with me 1 thoeght he challenged me to such a discussion, and it tarns oat that his only hone ia that he ia going to ride into othoe on Trumbail's hack, and irumuuu ia pyiug yjij aim oy laiseaova. into office, sow, 1 wilt porsae this subject little further. As 1 said before, the remainder of the record proves that Trumbull's charge was nisi ws-w win wrigTioauy requireu the constitution to be submitted to tbe people.

Tne printed copy he Shows declares that it re- quired tne test ciauaea, not tne constitution, be aubmitted bat taxis? it for or an ted that tha people would order aa eieetion on the oonatito-tton' my report says tbat we take tt tor granted that the people would order aa election. But there eras no clause in the Toombs bill requiring: the whole of the constitution to be submit ted. Trambali knew it at the time, because his speech anade at the time af the passage of tbe bill disclosed the fact tbat be knew it eras silent sa the subject. Trumbull wsnt down to Alloa in in to a to The Chicago Times took op Trumbull's Chicago speecn and compared it with the record, and proved all that part to be false declaring that the original bill required submission to the peo ple. Trnmball saw that he was caught and ex posed in his falsehood.

He went right to Alton, and under the very walls of the Illinois Penitentiary, made a new speech, in which ne predicated his assault on sse en the allegation that 1 pat into the hilt a clanse, and bad it voted in, a clause which pronibi-ted the convention from submitting the Constitution to the people. And he quoted what be pretended to be that elaase the clause which be quoted in his Alton speech, and which he has published and scattered broadcast all over the State as evidence that the Toombs bill as amended by me and passed, contained these words, which I will read And until the com plete execution of this act, no other election shall be held in said Territory." Trambali said that the object of preventing any other election in said Territory oy these words, was to ore vent the Constitution from being submitted to tbe people by tbe Convention that bad framed H. Now I will show yon tbat when Trnmball made that statement at Alton, he knew it to be untrue. 1 now read from Trumbail's speech in the Senate on tbe Toombs bill, the day it passed. There he says Tbere is nothing said is this Dill, so tar as 1 nave discovered, aw at submit ting the Constitution which is to be framed to the people for their sanction or Thus yon see Trumbull said in tbe Senate wben that bill was pending, that it was silent on tbe sub ject of submission, and that there was nothing tnat out one way or tne otner on the sabjeet, Ia his Alton speech he says there vu a elacse in it preventing submissioa to the people, and that I oat it in.

Thus 1 convict him ef falsehood and slander at Alton by quoting from hia own speech as reported in the Congressional Globe in the Senate of the United States wben tbe Toombs bill passed. Now what do yoa thick of man that will thus shift and make false charges and talsity the record to prove them. Now. in tbe next place, 1 will show yoa that the clause which Trumbull says was put in tbe bill my moiMm, waa never pat in at all, and was stricken from the report of tbe Committee, aad a sabsti- tnte on my own motion pot la its place. Sir, 1 call your attention to the Congressional Globe, page TiS.

Douglas said "1 have an amendment to offer from the Committee on Ter ritories, on page 8, section 11, strike oat the words, 'until the complete execution of the act, no other election shall be held in said Territory, and insert tbe amendment which 1 hold my band." Thus yoa see here that I moved strike ont tbe very words that Trambnll said were pat in, sad they were never pat in at all bat merely reported tbe Committee overruling me as I stated and stricken out in the Senate on my motion and another clause not in its place. On the same page yon find the amendment was agreed to. That amendment being agreed to, I put 111 another clause, recognizing tbe ngbt of the people of Kansas, under that bill, to order just snch an election as tbey might see proper. Now I will read them. Page "ati.M r.

Douglas said: "I have another amendment to offer from the Committee, to follow the amendment which has been adopted. The bill reads new, 'and nntd the complete execution of tbis act. no other election shall be held in said It has been suggested that it should be modified in this way, and to avoid all conflict in the complete execution of this act, all other elections in said Territoy are hereby postponed an til snch time as said convention shall appoint." This clearly and dis tinctly recognises toe right ot the conventioa to order just as maoy elections as they saw proper in the execution of the act. Now Trumbull concealed in bis Alton speech the fact that the clause which ne on me had been stricken out, and he concealed the other fact, that this clanse had been put in, and then made the false statement that the bill contained a clanse requiring sub mission, now, 1 repeal my cnarge npon inimbull upon that record that he did falsifr tbe record. ot this country in making that charge.

Applause. 1 And I tell Mr. Abraham Lincoia if be trill look at that record he will then know that Trambali falsified the pnblic record ia that charge. And Mr. Lincoln has this day indorsed Mr.

Trnmbult's veracity after be had my word for it that by tbe record his veracity was proved to have been forfeited and violated ia this charge. It won't do for Mr. Lincoln, in parading his calumny against me, to pat Trambali between him and tbe odium aad tbe responsibility tbat attaches to such calumny. I tell him I am as ready to prosecute the iodorser as the maker of a forged note. Applause.

1 regret the necessity of occupying my time in these petty personal matters. It is unbecoming tbe dignity of a canvass tor an office of tbe character for which we are When I commenced this canvass at Chicago I spoke of Mr. Lincoln terms of kindness and respect as an old friend, and told yen he wasamanofresnectable character, of good standing, and of unblemished reputation, and I had nothing to say against mm. repealed tnese remarks complimentary to him in my successive speeches, until he be came the iodorser for these and other slanders against me. If tbere is anything personally disagreeable, unkind or disrespectful ia these Ci-rsonslities, the sole responsibility is oa Mr.

incoln, Trumbull and their backers. I will show yoa another charge made by Mr. Lincoln against me, as an offset to his e'xpresaioa of a willingness to take back anything tbat is in correct, and to correct any false statement or misrepresentation into which he has fallen. Mr. Lincoln has made the charge several times againat the Supreme Conn of the United States, and President Pierce, and Presi dent Buchanan and myself, that at the time the Nebraska bill was introduced by me in June, 1bo4, at Washington City, there wss a conspira cy between the Judges of tbe Supreme Conrt snd President Pierce, President Bncbsnsn and myself to have the Dred Scott case decided in such a manner aa to establish slavery all over tbe country.

He charged a conspiracy between ns. I branded it as a falsehood and let it go. He repeated it. and asked me to answer, snd fetches the proof. I told him, says "Mr.

Lincoln 1 Know wbat yea are alter, loo wane-to occupy my time in personal matters so I csn't show op tbe revolutionary pnnrvinies whicb the Abolition party, whose candidate yon are, hare proclaimed te tbe world Bnt he wanted me to analyze his proof. Then I called his attention to the fact tbat at the time tbe Nebraska bill was introduced there was no sach esse as the Dred Scott ease pending in the So-Snpreme Conrt, nor was there for two yean afterward, and hence it was impossible that there should be any such conspiracy between the judges 01 tne supreme court and tbe other parties involved. 1 proved by the record that it waa taiae. ssi iu ss soy so tnaa tnat ne took it back like an honest man, acd saw that he had been mistaken No, be repeated the charge, and said that, although there was ne such case then pending, yet there was an under standing between the Uemceratic owners of Dred Scott aad the Judges snd the other persons alluded to, tbat they would bring np sach 8. 1 thee demanded, and nave since de manded, to know who those Democratic owners of Dred Scott were, oat be could not tell he did not know, for tbere were no Democratic owner of Dred ccott this land.

He owned at the time by the Rev. Dr. bailee, aa abolittoa member ef Congress from Springfield aad his wife. I Applanae. And sir.

ajiacoia eagot to know the fact that Dred Scott was thas owned by Dr. Chaffee and his wife, tor the reason that aa soon as the deetsioa waa announced by tbe Court Dr. Chaffee and hia wife executed a deed emanci pating Dred Scott, patting that deed on record. Thus it wss a matter of public record tbat at tha time that case waa taken op, Dred Scott was owned by an abolition memoertot Congress, a tnead ot Mr. lancoin noioing nim in bia o.

right, while tbe defence was conducted by abo lition congress on tne otner side. Thus Lb A bo4i tion ut is coed acted both aid, of the case. Laughter. 1 have thus shown that this charge wss false, 'and yet he wont withdraw that charge of eonapiracy. 1 now submit to yoa how much ooohdence yoa can place in tbe fairness of man who win, in making a onarge proved to se false even by the record, so shift hia ground.

1 will state anotner tact to snow now utterly reckless is this charge against President Pierce sad Buchanan. He says President Buchanan waa a partr to this conspiracy ia Jat wbea the Ne braska bill waa introduced. Now the history of thi. country arrows tnat James Dachanaa was at that tune representing thi. ooantrv at the Court ot LsondoB witn distinguished ability and fnlnes to his country.

The history of eoantry shows thst James Bacbanaa had as been the United State tor nearly a year previous, and never came her for about three year atterwards. Laughter. I And yet Mr. Lincoln keeps repeating the charre ot conspiracy againat Bacbanaa, when tbe sab-lie record shews that it ia aatrae, and he ought to have known it. Having thus -proved it false as to the members of tbe Supreme Court, aad false as to resident Bacbanaa, 1 let it drop.

leaving tbe public to say whether 1 by myself, wiiaoei otner concurrence, eopia p.vg niaas conspiracy with them. Laughter and aDPsanai But, my friends, yoa see that tbe object is clearly so eoeaocv tne esmpetgw ea peswoaat matters, hunting- xae now a. and making; chaws after charge, proven to be false by the pnbiie records ot the country. 1 am willing to offer mv whole public lite and my whole private lite to the inspection of any ansa, or of all mea, who desire to investigate if twenty-live years of residence among yoa, and nearly toe whole time a pnbiie man, exposed, perhaps. more assaults sad anora abuse than any snaa living of my age, or that ever did live, and if I save survived it all, and commanded roar eon tdenee thus far, 1 am willing to trust Mi your knowledge of me and my pnbiie actions, without making any personal defences againat these assaults irom my enemies.

Applause. I sow, my mends, 1 came here tor the purpose of disouaaing tne leading political topics which now agitata the eoantry. 1 have no charges to mane against atr. roseola none againat air. TrambulL for I was not aware that he waa a can didate.

Langbter. And none to make sgainst any man who a candidate, except to rrel their assaults en me. Mr. Lineoin is a mas of badcharacter.Ile.veituivon tofindnnt It his 1 young ip in past was not satisfactory to yon. I leave others to ascertain the fact, and if hi I course en the Mexican war waa not in accord ane with your opinions of patriotism and auty in aeience oi oar eoantry against pnnuc I enemy, I leave yoa to ascertain the face I have no assault to snake against 1 film except to place before von tbe history of tbe public question that now divides tbe country an engrosses se muoii ef too public attention.

Yoa know that prior to lfc54 this country was divided Into two great political parties tbe one Whig and tbe other Democratic I luring that whole for twenty rears nrior to that time. I had heen in public discussions in this State a aa advocate of Democratic principles, and I can appeal with confidence to every Old Line Whig in the hearing of say voice ounng au uu uine, 1 did not nghi a $TFor TO DAY'S AhVERTISEMENTS, LOCAL, TELEGRAPHIC and COMMERCIAL NEll'S Set Fototk Page. THE GREAT TKIUHI'II OF THE CIMPilG.W ItfiltlTK BETWEF.J LINCOLN iVND DOUGLAS AT ClIAKLESTON. Twelve to Fifteen Thousand Persons Present. LINCOLN TCMAKA.WXS HT9 ANTAGONIST WITH THE TOOMBS BILL.

Crest Seat of the la the Seventh District. KILLED, WOUNDED AND MISSIS, Grand Demonstration of the Republican Girli of Charleston. Eto, Etc. Saturday last was a day to be remembered iu the counties of Coles, Eilgar, Cumberland, Clark, Champaign, Vermillion, etc. Eastern Illinois.

According to announcement, the fourth great debate between Lincoln and Donglas was pitchpd" in the city of Charleston at the date before-mentioned, and we risk nothing iu saying the joint demonstration eciipv-d all previous political turn-out in the eentral portion of the Stnte. Ottawa and Freeport must try agaiu, for while the latter perhaps brought a few more listeners to tbe debate, boib together would not have made so imposing a display of the etceteras of a great campaign. On Friday evening the hotels in the town were already crowded to excess, and tbe Btreets were hung with national flags, banners, and all manner ot artistic devices which could be pressed into political Bervice: Early on Satuid ly morning the town began to fill up with delegations and teams from the adjoining precincts and the surrounding counties. A special train from Indiana brought car loads of Interested lookers on from that State. People came on horseback and muleback, in wagons, in freight trains and on foot some with badges and some with banners, some with their dinners and some without.

At ten o'clock the streets and side walks around the public square were almost impassable, and those who essayed out-doors anywhere in the vicinity were well nigh stilled with dust fur iheir pains. The chief decoration of the day was a gigantic banner, eighty feet long, huug across the street from the Court House to a high building on the west Bide of the street. On one side was inscribed C0LE3 COUNTY FOUR HUSDKED MAJORITY FOR LINCOLN. On the reverse was a painting of Old Abe 30 Ago," driving three yoke of oxen, attached to a yawl like Kentucky wagon. This was flanked by two maguilicent specimens of the stars and stripes.

Mr. Lincoln and Mr. Uouglas both passed the previous night iu Mattoon. Two processions were starti from that thriving town on Saturday mwuing, to escort the speakers to Charleston. About half past ten another long and imposing procer-tiou of carriages horsemen, bands of music, and conspicuous above all, a mammoth car covered with white muslin and silk and decorated with wild fiowers, bearing a huge inscription, LIN OGLESBT, MARSHALL AND CR ADDOCK" and carrying thirty two young ladies with banners inscribed with names of the States of the Confederacy moved out of Charleston to meet Mr.

Lincoln. About an hour afterwards the two Eepublican processions returned together. They constituted without question the most formidable arrayjof the campaign. Innummcrable banners fluttered in the ind farther then the eye could through the cloud of dust that accompanied them. As they entered the town the procession as a mile iu length.

As compared with it, the Douglas escort was a very puny affair. The car provided for the thirty-two ladies on that side of the house, somehow contained only fifteen, and a majority of these were under eight years of age suggesting the idea of their being Territories rather than States. The carriage in which Mr. Lincoln was con-Teyed was driven to the entrance of the Capitol House where Mr. Bromwell of Charleston made the following reception speech Hon.

A shah am Lincoln Though oft Welcomed beiore by the citizens of Coles, yet now a thousand times more welcome to the friends of free tnougbt, live speech, free labor and free Constitutions ihruugh. this portion of our Stale, when they hail you as the champion of these principles in this unparalleled contest, which brings such profit to oar cause and houor to yourself. These friends Imve honored me with the commission whictt I now so gladly but so imperfectly fulhiil of presenting you, through my voice, the accumulated welcome of assembled thousands. There are those among us who have witnessed your course from dawning manhood till this hoar. If they have marked with satisfaction your -course ia the waika of integrity and independence, they feel the more pride bow ia bailing you as the tit standard bearer of the great Republican phalanx which supports those princi-fples only which are born to the eternal years of God.

Yen, as well and thousands among -our numbers, deem it no dishonor that we owe to honest labor all the position, whatever it may be, which we occupy among our fellows. Hence -we strive for the elevation of labor to no second position in honor in our Republic. We have seen yon shedding lustre on tbis principle, and bringing free labor to the level of the occupations ot tbe forum. We seek now to commission you as one who may assist in maintaining it aids by side with tbe dignity of the Senate These laudable aims are being thwarted by tbe introduction of principles repugnant to tbe oniightened sentiment ot treemen. A doable-beaded opposition, warring in its own members as to the mode, unites to crash the right but we recognize in this only the continuation of that war against true freedom which has always existed, and in which there is no discbarge, yet atili we trtumnhwhen the bright stand ards of truth shall sweep the dark shadows of error from the portals of her broad paviHiou, when the consregited minorities ot our land shall join with that ot Illinois in treading the winepress of public indignation, in which alike all factions of enemies to Uifl people shall niincle their blood.

I again elcome you to our hospitalities. Gentlemen and citizens, allow me to introduce to you the Hon. Abraham Lincoln tbe next senator ot tlie tuned States froiJ the State of Illinois. to which Mr. Lincoln responded Fellow citizens, 1 have not beea accustomed to these demonstrations and popular gatherings in my journeying through our State heretofore.

I accept them, and 1 particularly accept this as testimonial, not to myself, but to the cause and the principles which your favor has caused me to reoresent in this contest. 1 thank tou anest sincerely for tbis Mattering reception, for aba kind welcome your speaker has uttered, and (turning to the car conveying the young ladies, tor this beautiful basket of Dowers. I Loud cheers. 1 can now only express my thanks tor this hue demonstration, and say that 1 will more fully address you and discuss tbe issues involved jn tee present struggle, at anotner aoar. Three loud cheers were then given, and a general dispersion took place for dinner.

Those who partook of the fare of our friend Johnson, at the Capitol House, were dandy fortified for the exercises of the alter- noon. It would be impossible to give in our col umns a tithe of the Interesting adjuncts and incidents of the day. We will merely add that the Republicans of Coles County are a tost, and no mistake. Mr. Lincoln' Speech.

Mr- Lincoln too the stand at a quarter before three, and wag greeted with vociferous ad protracted applause; after which, fie said LiDits asp GenTLKMEV It will be verv diffi. ciiit mi audience so large as this to hear dis- tisii iU at a speaker says, and consequently it is important that as profound silence be pre-curved as possible. White I was at the hotel to-day an elderly gentlemen called npon me to know whether 1 wag Tpuiiv in favor of uroducintr a nerfect eonalitv between the negroes and white people. Great laughter.) While I had not proposed to myself pa this occasion to say much on that subject, yet ever jurors office, will liviug whila other this the negro for now have wile. get wives I old er law great were that this is place can snd of best at fight tbis he be that I said it the man man I he his I to it to to las to In it 'NothiDR was firther from my mind than to allude to acy soc'al or confidential interview.

Tne meeting vm not. r-f that character. Indeed it was seal an 1 called to promote tbe public sood. Mv recollection was clesrtht I left the conference under the impre. ioo that it had been deemed bf st to kdopt measures to admit Kansas as a State throreh tbe SKtacs of one popul ele ction, and that for delegates to this Ooventioa.

This imore-aion waa stronger because I thoueht tbe api-U of the bill infrinired upon thedoctrineof Doo-iatervenrion to whica I had arefct aversion but with tbe hope of accomp'tsinng a RTet pood, and a no movement ha been made In tiat in ti territory, I waived this objection, acd concluded to support tbe measure. I have few items of testimony as to toe correctness of these lmpres-ions, and with their submission I shall be content, hae nie the bill reported by the Senator from Illinois, on the 7th of March, lxoii providing f' the admission of Kansas a Sta- e. the th'rd section of which reads as fo.loas 'That the foHowii proposition, be, and the same are hereby offered to the said convention of toe people of K.nsa. whe-i formed, for their free acceptance or rejection wtii-h if accepted by the convention, aud ratified by the people at the election lor the adoption of the Constitution, shall be obligatory upun the United States and the saiS -'tiUe of Th. hill read in bv the Senator from Geo-ria on he 25th of June, and referred to the Committee oa Territories, contained tbe aame sertiou word for word.

Both th se rt uiider consideration at th conference referred to bu. sir. when tbe Seuator from Illinois report-e the Toom bill to the Senate, with atieiidments. tne nest niumine it did not contain that portion of the third section which Indicated to the Convention that the Con-stitution should be iprrn-ed by th? peop'e. Tbe words AVIl RATlrlr'U UY'THKPK PLE A'l THE KLFOTIO.S w.iKTHB AliOPrlOS OS" Tils' had been st U'ken Now these tilings Trnmball says were stated by Bigler upn the floor of the Senate cn certain days, and that tbey are recorded in the Congress tional Globe on certain pages.

Does Judge Douglas say this is a forgery? Does be say there is no such thing in the Congressional Globe 1 What does be mean when he 8113 Judge Trumbull forges hia evidence, from beginning to end So again be says in another place, that Judge Douglas, in his speech Dec. 9. 1S57, (Congressional Ulobe, part 1 page 15) stated "That dtrrlnvtbe session of Consres I Mr. Dotur. Iu reported but from the Committee on Territories, to authorize tbe people of Kansas to assemble and form a constitution for themselves, fubsfquvnttv the Senator f-om Georgia u.

T0-111M brought f-rwaH a snbst tiite for ray bill which, after haviny been mottled try him and myself in consultation, was passed by Now Trumbull says that is a quotation from a speech of Douglas, and is recorded in the Congressional Gooe. Is it a forgery Is it there or uot It may not be there, but I want the Judue to take these pieces of evidence, and distinctly say they art forgeries, if he dart do it. Great applause. A Voice. He will.

Mb Lincoln. Well, sir, yon had better not commit him. Cheers and laughter. He gives otber quotations another from Judge Douglas. He says I willAsk the Senator to show me an Intimation, from anyone men her of the feenate.

in the whole debate on the Toom is hill, and in tl-e Union, from aDy that the constitution was ot to he submitted to the people. I will venture to say that on alt sides of the chamber it so understood a' the time If the opp neDts of the bit had understood it was not. they won have made the noint on it and if they had made it. we should certainly have yie.ded to fl, and put in tiie clause. 1'bat is discovery made since the Presider found out th it was not safe to take it for grantrd that that would be dona, wnich ought in to have been ne." Judge Trumbull savs Douglas made thatspeech.

and it is recorded. Does Judge Dougles say it is a forgery and was not true 1 Trumbull says' somewhere, and I propose to skip it, bnt it will be found by any one who will read this debate, that he did distinctly bring it to the notice of those who were engineering the bill, that it lacked that provision and then he goes on to give another quotation from Judge Donglas, where Jndge Trumbull uses this language Judge Douglas, h.wevfr. on the same day ard hi the gmie debate, prrbably recollecting or being reminded of fact, that 1 h-d objecte to the "loomh's bid wben peodng. tha. it dJdn-u provide for a sabrpissi'-n of the Constitution to the people, made another statement which t- feu- in the same volume 01 the Globe, nage 22, which be says 'TTuat the bill was silent on this subject was true, and "mv attentru was cat.

ed to that about th time it "passed: and I took tbe 'air eonstrnction to be. that "towe-t not delegxtrd were reserved, and that of course "ibe Conatitut'on would be s-hinitted to the peorle." Whether this statement is conslrtent with the statement before made, that hd the point been made it would tiave teen yieided to. or that it tu a new discovery, yoa determine. So I say. I do not know whether Judge Donglas will dispute this, and yet maintain his position tbat Trumbull's evidence "was forged from beginning to end." I will remark that I have not got these Congressional Globes with me.

They are large books and diflicut to carry about, and if Judge Douglas shall say that on these points wbere Trnmball has quoted from tbem, there are no sach passages there, I shall not be able to prove they are there npon this occasion, bnt I will have another chance. Whenever he points out the forgery and says, I declare that this particular thing which Trumbull has uttered is not to be found where he says it is," then my attention will be drawn to that, and 1 will arm myself for the contest, stating now that I have not the slightest doubt on earth tbat 1 will find every quotation just where Trumbull says it is. Then the question is, bow can Douglas call that a forgery How can be make out that it is a forgery What is a forgery is the bringing forward something in writing in print purporting to be of certain effect when it is altogether untrue. If you come forward with my note for one hundred dollars when I have never given snch a note, there is a forgery. If yon come forward with a letter purporting to be written from me which I never wrote, there is another forgery.

It yon produce anything in writing or print saying it is so and so, tbe document not being genuine, a forgery has been committed. How do yoa make tbis forgery wben every pieee of the evidence is genuine? If Judge Douglas does say these documents and quotations are false and forged be has a mil right to ao so, but until be does it specifically we don't know how to get at him. he does say tbey are false and forged, I will then look further into it, and I presume I can procure the certificates of tbe proper officers that they are genuine copies. 1 have no donbt each of these extracts will be found exactly where Trnmball says it is. Then 1 leave it to yoa if Judge Donglas, in making his sweeping charge that Judge Trumbull's evidence is forged from beginning to end, at all meets the case if that is the way to get at tbe facts.

I repeat again if he wilt point out which one is a forgery will carefully examine it, and if it proves that any one of tbem ia really a forgery it will not be me who will hold to it any longer. I have always wanted to deal with every one I meet, candidly and honestly. If 1 have made any assertion not warranted by facta, and it in pointed out to me, I will withdraw it cheerfully. Bat 1 do not choose to see Judge Trambali calumniated, and the evidence he bus brought forward branded in general terms, a forgery from beginning to end." That is not the legal way of meeting a charge, and 1 suomit to su intelligent persona, both friends of Judge Douglas and of myself, whether it is. Now coming back how tnach time have I left Tns MoDiaaToa Three minutes.

Mr. LrxooLK. Tbe point npon Judge Donglas is this. The bill tbat went into but bands bad the provision in it for a submission of the constitution to the people and I ssy its Isngnage amounts to an express provision tor a suomis-sion: and tbat be took tbe proviaioa ont. He aaya it was known tbe bill was silent in tbis particular but say.

Judge Douglas, tt was notsiknt when you got it. Great applause. 1 It was vocai with the declarattod when yea got it, tor a submission 01 tns constitution to the people. And now, my direct question to Judge Douglas is, to answer why, if be deemed the bid- suent on this point, be toend it necessary to strike out those particular harmless words. If he had found tbe bill silent and without this provision, he might eay what he does now.

If he supposed it was implied that the constitution would be submitted to a vste of the people, how could these two lines ao encumber the statute as to make it necessary to strike them out? How could he latex that a submission was still implied, after ita express provision had been stricken from the bill 1 find the bill vo cal with the provision, while he silenced it. He took it out, and although he took oat the other provision nrevenimir a submission to a vote ef the people, I ask, why did you jirst put it in? I ask him whether he took the original provision out. which Trumbuu alleges was in tbe bit 1 If be admits tbat he did take it, ask nwn avisos nut xijar it tooca to as as fie had altered the bilL If it looks differently to him if he has a different reason for his action from tbe one we aasitrn him he can Uu it. insist npon knowing why he made the bill silent upon tnat point wben it was vocal betora ate sat bis nanas cpan it. I waa toid, before my last paragraph, that my tiBiw wa, wiuus tare, minuses 01 oeing oat.

presume it is expired new. 1 therefore dose. Three tremendous cheers were given as Mr. Lincoln retired. IIr.

Douglas- Reply. Lamas ano Gsntlbmui I bad supposed that we had assembled here to-day for the purpose of a joint discussion between Mr. Lincoln and my. elf npon the political questions that now agitate the whole country. Tbe rule of all joint discussions is, that the opening speaker shall touch on all the points which he Intends to discuss, in order that the one to reply shall have the opportunity of answering them.

Let me ask you what questions of pnblic policy has Mr. Lincoia dis cussed oeioTe yoa lacebing tbe welfare of the States or the welfare of tbe Union Cries of None, none Allow me to remind yoa that silence is tbe best compliment, for I need my whole time, and year cheers only occupy it, Mr. Lincoln simply contented himself in the outset by saying that he was sot in faver ot social and political equality between tbe white and the negro nor did he desire to have tbe law changed so as to make them voters or eligible to ouice. I am glad to have got an answer from him on that proposition, to wit: the right of suffrage and holding office by negroes for i have been trying to gel him to answer that point daring the whole time that the canvass has been going on. Fassing, however, from that.

I now nronoM to call your attention to the one question which he has occupied bis entire time in discussing. He has occupied his whole hoar in discussing a eharge made by Senator Trambnll against we, originating two years ago, and prior to the last Presidential election. that charge of Trumbull's waa true, wby did he not make it in '56, when the question was werun.nl and wa then in issue, and when I waa me it the to I a for firs I to the into Is men cry it me to in he to he be had the least apprehension that J. or my friends would merry negroes if there was no to keep them from it, laughter but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in apprehension that they might, if there no law to keep them from it, roars of laiighterl I give him the most solemn pledge 1 will to the very last stand by the law ot State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes. Continued laughter and applause.

I will add one farther word, which this, that I do not understand there is any where an alteration of tbe social and political relations of tbe negro and the white man be changed except in the State Legislature not in the Congress of the United States as I do not really apprehend the approach any snch thing myself, and as Jodge Douglas teem to be in constant horror that some such danger is rapidly approaching, 1 propose as the meant to prevent it, that the Judge he kept home and placed in the State Legislature to the measure. Uproarious laughter and applause. 1 do not oropose dwelling longer at time on this subject. When Judge Trumbull, oor other Senator in Congress, returned to Illinois in the month of Auo-ust. he made a speech at Chicago in which made what may be called a charge against Judge Douglas, which I understand proved to very offensive to him.

The Judge was at time out upon one of his speaking tonrs through the country, and when the news of it reached him, as I am informed, be denonnced Judge Trumbull in rather harsh terms for having said what be did in regard to that matter. was traveling at that time and speaking at the same places with Jndge Dong-las on subsequent days, and when I heard of what Judge Trumbull had said of Douglas and what Douglas had back again I felt that I was in a position "where I could not remain entirely silent in regard to the matter. Consequently upon two or three occasions I alluded to it, and 1 alluded to in no other wise than to say that in regard to eharge brought by Trumbull against Dong-las, I personally knew nothing and sought to say nothinz about it that I did personally know Judge Trumbull that I believed him to be a of veracity tbat I believed him to be a of capacity sufficient to know very well whether an assertion he was making as a conclusion drawn from a set of facts, was true or false a conclusion of my own from that, stated it as my belief, if Trumbull should ever be called npon he would prove everything had said. I said this upon two or three occasions. Upon a subsequent occssion Judge Trumbull spoke again before an audience at Alton and npon thst occasion not only repeated charge strains Donglas, bnt arrayed the evidence he relied npon to substantiate it.

This speech was published at length; and subsequently at Jacksonville Judge Douglas alluded to the matter. In the course of his speech and near the close of it he stated in regard to myself what I will now read: "Judge Douglas pro-' ceeded to remark that he should not hereaf- ter occupy his time in refutine such charges "made by Trumbull, bat that Lincoln having "indorsed the character of Tramboll for be should bold him (Lincoln) responsible for the slanders." I have done simply what have told yon, to subject me to this invitation notice the eharge. I now wish to si-t that had not originally been my purpose to discuss that matter at all. But inasmuch as it seems be the wish of Judge Douglas to hold me responsible for it, then for once in my life I will nlav General Jackson and to the just extent 1 tabs the responsibility. Great applause and cries of "good, good," "hurrah lor Lincoln," etc.1.

I wish to say at the beginning that I will hand the reporters that portion of Judge Trum-boll's Alton speech which was devoted to this matter, and also that portion of Judge Dong- speech made at Jacksonville in answer it. I shall thereby furnish the readers of this debate with the complete discussion between Trumbull and Douglas. I cannot cannot now read them, for the reason that it would take half of my first hour to do so. I can only make some comments upon them. Trumbull's charge is in the following words: Sow, the charge is, that there was a plot en-" tered into to have a constitution formed for Kansas snd put in force without giving the neonle an ODDortunity to vote npon it, and that Mr.

Donglas was in the plot." 1 will state, withont quoting farther, for all will have an opportunity of reading it hereafter, that Judge Trumbull brings forward what he regards as sufbcient evidence to suoBtantiate tuis charge. Tbe extract, lunded to our reporter by Mr. lincln re quite uo lenttLy to appear in thi. number of the asp Tumi ss. Jtadre TrambaU'.

speech rt Alton ha already had a place in our colomnt. and Semtnr llooctM' renuukamt JatrtonTill. are faithfully repeated bi. portion of tui. tCiuirlesUM It will be perceived Judge Trumbull shows tbat Senator Bigler, upon the floor of the Senate, had declared there had been a conference among the Senaiota.

in which conference it was deter mined to htive an Enabling Act passed tor the people of Kansas to form a Constitution under.and this conference it was agreed among them that was best not to have a provision for submitting the Constitution to a vote of the people after it should be formed. He then brings forward evidence to show, and showing, as he deemed it, tliat Judge Douglas reported the bill back to the Senate with that clause stricken out. He then shows that there was a new clause inserted into the bill. which would in its nature prevent a reference of the Constitution back for a vote of the people if, indeed, upon a mere silence in the law, it could be assumed that they had the right to vote upon it. These are the general statements that be has made.

I propose to examine the points In Judtre Dong las speech, in which he attempts to answer that speech of Judge Trumbull's. When you ccme to examine Judge Douglas' speech, yoa will that the first point he makes is "Suppose it were trne that there was such a change in the bill, and that I struck It out is tbat proof of a plot to force a Constitution npon them against their will?" His striking out such a provision, if there was such a one in the bill, he argues does not establish the proof tbat it was stricken out for the purpose or robbing the people of that ngut. I would say, in tbe first place, that that would be the sum mimifest reasou for it. It is true, as Judge Douglas states, that many Territorial bills nave passed witnont naving such a provt-ion them. I believe it is true, though I am not certain, that, inisome instances.

Constitutions framed under such bills have been submitted to a vote of the people, with the law silent on the subject, but it does not appear tbat they once had the Enabling Acts framed with au express provision for submitting the Constitution to be framed, to a vote of tbepeople, and then that they were stricken out when Congress did not mean to alter the ef fect of tbe law. 1 bat there have been bills which er had the provision in, I do not question but whea was that provision taken out of one that it was in More especially does tnu, evidence tend to prove the proposition that Trumbull advanced, when we remember that that provision wap striken out of tbe bill almost simultaneously with the time mat oigiersays mere was a colic renca among certain Senators, and iu wbiuh It was agreed that a bill should be passed leaving that out. Judge Uongias. ra answering Trumbull, emits to attend to the testimony of Bigler, that thore was a meet-iug in which it was agreed tbey should so frame the biH tbat theie should be no submissioa of the Constitution to a vote ef the peeple. The J.

dge aoes not notice mis pan oi it. it you tase as one piece of evidence, and then ascertain that siujultaneou-dy Douglas struck out a pro- vim iu urn require i ue tniommeu, ana put the two together, 1 think It will make a pretty fair show of proof that Judge Douslas did, a3 Trumbull says, enter into a plot to put iu force a Constitution for Kansas without giving the people anv opportunity of voting npon iu iSul most nurry on. 'iu next proposition that Judge Douglas pntaisthis; "But npon examination, it turns out that the Toombs' bill never did contain a clause requiring tbe Constitution to be submitted." This is a mere ques tion of tact, and ean be determined by evidence. I only want to ask tbis question by did not Jndge Doagias say that these words vert not stricken out of the iooe.br bill, or this bill (rnm which it alleged the provision waa stricken out bill which goes by the name of loom 08, because be originally brought it tor- war a i sea wnv, if tcie 4aage wantea to make a direct issue with Trambali, aid us not take tbe exact proposition Trumbull made in bis speech, and aay it was not stricken oat Trumbull has given the exact words tbat be says were in the Toombs' bill, and he alleges that when the bill came oack, they were stricken est. Judge Douglas doe not aay tbat the words which Trnmbu aava were stricken oat, were not so stricken out, but he says there waa no provision in tne iooihos uui to suomit tbe Constitution to a vote of the poople.

We see st once that be is merely making an issue upon the meaning of the words. He has not undertaken to say tbat Trumbull tells a lie about these words being stricken out but he is reallr, when pushed up to it, only taking an issue npon the meaning of the words. Now then, if there be any issue noon the meaning of tbe words, or it there be upon the question of tact as to whether these words were stricken out, 1 have before me what 1 suppose to be a genuine copy of the Toombs' bill, in which it ens be shewn that the words Trumbull says were in it, mere in feu originally titers. 11 there be any dispute npon tbat fact, I have got the documents fcari to show they war said the one bad of the form was tbat is waa why if I to ot that that by. tbe was at not be be it the he bill the in he a contract, wiu i Now Lincoln confidential friend, Matheny, thought that Lincoln conspired snd contracted with sach rogues ss Trnmball sad tbe Abolitionists.

Laughter. 1 wonld like to know whether Lincoln thought aa well of Trumbail's veracity at the time that Trnmball agreed te go for him for Senator, and then cheated him, as he does now when Trambali comes forward against me. Yoa could not prove this at that time. You could not prove Trumbull a nice man, either by Lineola or Matheay, or any ef Lineoin' friend. Tbey charged everywhere that Tram bull bsd cheated him in tbe bargain, and tbea Lincoln found oat, sure enough, te conspire and eorftract with rogue.

New, 1 will explain to yoa what baa been a mystery all over this State and Union, in regard to the reasons for Lincoln's being nominated for the United States Senate by the Republican State Convention. Yon know it never was usual tor any party ia Stats Con-ventiocs to nominate a candidate for Senator. Tbe first time it was ever done was probably this year by the Conventioa. The Convention was not called for tbat purpose. It was called to nominate a State ticket, and nearly every man wa disgusted wnen they nominated Lineola.

Archy Williams thought he was entitled to it, Browning felt thst he deserved it. John Wentworth thought he mast have it. Peck thought be deserved it, odd was to have it. Palmer was expecting it. To tbe astonishment of Lincoln waa aominated by the Convention.

He was not only nominated, bat he received it unanimously by a resolution declaring that Abraham Lincoia was the first, the last snd only choice ot the party. How waa that because they couldn't get Lincoln and hia friends to make another bargain with rogues unless tbe whole party woold come up aa one man aad pledge their honors this time that they wonld stand by Lincoia first sud last aad all tho time, and that Lovejoy shoutda't cheat Lineoin this time as Trnmbull did before. Laughter. And thus it is by the passing of thst resolution Lincoln received taw universal support of tbe Abolitionists. Lovejoy is for him.

arnsworth is making speeches for him. Giddingsis for him tbey are all for him. The negroes are making speeches for him, sad ho is sure aot to be cheated this time, for be woold not go into the arrangement until he got the bond for it. And thus yoa find that Trumbull is compelled now to come oat en the stamp and get np those false charge atraiost ma, aad travel all over the Slate te elect Mr. Lincoln, ia order to keep him and his friends qniet about that bargain ia which Trambali cheated them tire years ago.

Now yon see wby it is that Lincoln and Trumbull are so mighty fond of each other. Laughter. They have catered into tbat conspiracy to bant me down by these attacks on my pnblic character, in order to draw my at-teatioB fro as the xpowrre of the mode by which they atteanpttd to abolitiooize the old Wbigs and the old Democrats and lead them captive into the Abolition camp. Don', you rememijer that Lincoln was round here tear years ago, making siveches to yoa, aud telling you tint you ouirbt to go for laat About on ticket, and sweariug that be was then as (rood a Whig as he ever wa. Trumboll went all over tbe ate making sieches to the eld DeBaocrau, trying to coax them into tbe Abolition camp, swearing by his Maker that be was still a good Democrat, and would never desert the Democratic party.

Bat wben be got yoar votes, the Lecislstare elerted was an Abuilien Legislaturei luey passed Auc tion resolutions, and they passed Abolition laws, and supported Abolitionists for State and rial mat offices. Now tbe same- gam is attempted to be played over agaiu, Yoa ksow that while Trumbull and Liaculn were thus making captive tbe old Whirrs and Democrats, they bad Giddines, tbe high priest of Abtditionism, front Ohio to receive and christen them in the dark cause jtast gs fast as they brought them ia. id-dings found tbe converts were so name ous and were oraarrht in from every part of the Stat, that be had to have nstastmacn, sa bo sent off tu John P. Dale. S.P.

Banks and other Abolitoaists, and they together witu Lovejoy an 1 Fred Doug mane out to liaptize tne new converts jost as laea as Trsmhrrll.aad Lincoln, and Breese, and y-noldsjtnd Diasgnrrty cuuid capture them and bring the, wuiiia reach, and now tney man. nil sue same kind of pledges. Trambali goes -down to Monroe Countv: he went tbere tne otner day making a speech in ta-vor of Lineoin, and I will show yon under what notice the eneettBg was called. You see they are Black ilepuhlicaos np north. In Snrinclield to-day, they call their convention bv tlie name "of Repnhtiean Con vention, bat tbey call all men opposed te tbe De mocracy, tiea tuey got down to aumroe vuumy in Lower Egypt, Trutuuull had bis notices in tbis way: "A meeting oi tue rree iwutoctiict wui take place ia Waterloo, Sept Utb bust, whereat Hun.

Lyman 1 rum bull and Jehu Baker will ad- dress the people on tlie political topics of the day. Men of all parties are mviiea to ne pres. sent and hearsna deterxmiie for taenia l.i i. 3fawg j-'rat Lumin art Now. did voo ever bear of this new party called the Free Democracy Wbat is the ob ject of changing their name in every coanty tney come tor true in tne sdwsw the centre and another tu the South.

Wheal used to pravnacs law betora gay duvtingaished friend that 1 recognise ia the crowd, and tbe proof ahowed that a man charged with boras-stealing had gone bv one name in Stephenson Coanty, a second in S.ngsmoe,- and was under a third ejown in Randolph, thought th fact of changing name waa.yretty strong proof that he was gniltv of the charge made againat him. Now, 1 would like to know why it se that tbis great Free Soil Abolition party are aot willing to have tbe sama name in ail parts ot tbe Stale. Wby is it tbat if this black Republican parly believe tbat their principles are sound and their cause is just, tbat they do not have the sama principles in th North and in tha South ia the East and ia tbe West, wherever the Americas sag waves over American sou? A Votes Dent call us Black Republicans. Jcdgb DojUsuaS by, air, it jew will zo to Waukegan. fifteen miles north ef Chicago, yoa wiU find a paper with Lincoln name at tho bead, and yen will trod it said at th head of it, this paper is devoted to th cause of xUacc iwepublicaaianv I Applause 1 aea copy of it to carry with me down here into "ypt you see by what name they went np to ere.

auu tneir principles vary aa kducu np tbere ss tbey Tary from the name down here. Their pr monies no there are iet black wbea yen get down into the centre tney are decent colored mulatto; when yen get down rat) row er fcgypt tbey are almost iuauirp'ex j. There were many whit; xearrmest contained in Lincoln's speech down f1 ones born, and I could not help contrasting them with tbe speeches of the aame distinguished orator in tbe northern parts of the (slate. Hit brm strain Up ther hia pariv say they are for no more slave Stales under shy circumstances down here they pretend that they are willing to allow the people of sech State, when they come into the I nion, to do jost as tbey please en the sub ject of slavery. I.

there, you will find Lovejoy, loeir candidate lor sjongreas tbe moomingvogi district, and arnsworth, tl err candidate for Congress in tbe district of Chicago, and Waah- barne, the candidate in the iratena district, ati pledged never under any circumstances will they consent to admit soother slave State in this Union, even if tbe people want it. Thus while tbey there have one set of principles, down here tbey have anotner. Here let me rewind Mr. Lincoln of his scriptural gaol sties, watch ha ha appli.d to the Federal CroveraBieot, that a ho dm divided against itself cannot stand. Doe he expect this Abolition party to stand, when in on half of the State tbey advocate one set of prraciplea, aad in toe other half repotiiaielhsr aavd aroeate another I Laughter, I am told! have bnt eight minutes mere.

I wsnt to talk about one hoar more, bet wiu make the beat ass I can ef tbat eisat minutes. Mr. Lincoln has said in hi first speech that he was net in favor of tbe social and pohtical equality of the negro aad the white maa bnt I will now tell von wbat he has said everywhere st ths'north. He there said he was not favor of the'politicsl and social equality ef the negro, bnt he would not say np there that he wss opposed to negro vouag and negro citiienahap. He declares sis alter opposition to the Dred Scott decision, and avows as his reason tbat the Court decided tbat it was mot possible that a negro shall a oitisen wader th Constitution of the United States.

i vative men, wnen convinced tbat they had done injustice to Clay, Webster, Cass, and the other great statesmen who had supported those measures, they repealed these nullifying resolutions, and declared that the law should be executed, and the supremacy of the Constitution maintained. Let it always be recorded in history, to the immortal honor of tbe people of Cbi cago, that they had a sense of justice to take the back track when they found tbey were wrong, and did justice to those whom they had blamed and abused unjustly. When tbe Legislature of this State assembled that year, they proceeded to pass resolution, approving the Compromise Measures of 1S50. When tbe great Whig party assembled in 1352 in Baltimo.e, in National Convention for the last time, and nominated Scott for the Presidency, they adopted as a part of their platform the Compromise Measures of lS5t. That was the cardinal plank upon which every whig would stand, end by which he wonld regulate his fa-tare conduct.

Wben the Democratic party assembled st the ssme place one month afterwards and nominated Mr. Pierce, we adopted the same plank, so far as these Compromise measures were concerned, snd agreed that we too wonld stand by Clay' Compromise measures, as a cardinal article in tbe Democrstic faith. Thus yea see thst in 1S53 all the old Wbigs and all tbe old Democrats stood on a common plank, so far as tbis slavery question wss concerned, but different inotheT measures. How, let me ask yon, how is it that since tbat time se many old Wbigs have wandered from the trne path marked cut by Clay, and carved ont broad and wide by the great Webster? How is tbat so many old line Democrats have abandoned tbe old faith of the party, aad joined with the Abolitionists and Free Soilers to overturn thepiatiorm ot tbe old Democrats and the platform of the old Whigs. hat a pity Donglas boiled.

1 on can deny bnt wbat since ISM, there has been a great revolution on this one question. Let me ask hew has it been brongbt abont. 1 answer, no sooner was tbe sod green oa tbe grave of the immortal lav-no sooner were the roses planted en the tomb of the godlike Webster, th.n many leedrrsot the old Whig party, snch as Seward, of New York, and his followers, attempted to abolitiooize the old Whig party, and transfer yon at! bound hand and foot into the abolition earn p. Seizing hold of the temporary excitement prottaced in tbis eoantry by tbe introduction or the Nebraska bill, the disappointed politician in tbe Democratic party united with the disappointed politicians rn tne nig party, ana attempted to form a new party of abohtloniied Democrats and abolitiouized Whigs, who were all Abolitionists herded together on ao Abolition platform. And woo led tnat erasade againat Cnioo principles ia thia State I answer that Abraham Lincoln in behalf of tbe Wbigs and Lyman Trambali in behalf of tbe Democrats formed a scheme by which tbey would abolitannixe the two great parties of this country then that Lincoia should be sent to the Senate of the United State ia the place of General Shields, while Trumbull should go to Congress from tbe Belleville District until 1 would be accommodating enough either to die or resiga for his benefit, and then he would goto the donate of the Lulled States too.

Now, yoa remember that during the year 1354, these two worthy gentlemen, Mr. Lincoln and Air. Trnmball, one an old line Whig and tha the other aa old line Democrat, were bant ing tor votes to elect a Lieaialaiure ag-aiust the Democratic party. I oaavaaeed the State that year from the nine I returned home till tbe elec tion came on, aad spoke in every county thst 1 could reach during that period. Ia tbe north ern part of th Slate.

I passed Lincoln' ally there, in tns person 01 rreu. iioogiasa, the negro, peaching revolutionary principle, while Lancoln was discussing tne same principles down here, and Trambali a little farther down at tempting to elect members of the and acting ia barmoay each with tbe other. 1 have witnessed tbe esort made ia Chicago by Mr. Lincoln's then associate and now supporters to put Fred. Douglass on the stand at a Democratic meet inn, to reply to the illustrious Gen.

Cass, when be wa addressing- the neonle there. Tbey had tbat same negro hunting me down, the aame as they have a negro canvassing the principal counties of the North in be half ot iyincotn. sir. JLincoIa knows that when wc were st freeport, st joint dsscossion, tbere was a distinguished colored gentleman tbere, laaghterj who made a sneecn that night snd tns night a snort distance from Free port. ia favor of Lincoln, and showing- bow much in terest hia colored brethren felt in the soceessof tbeir brother, Abraham Lincoln.

Langbter. I have with me now, what I could read if necee- sary.a speech msde by Fred. Douglas in Poogh-keepsie, N. to a larae convention, in which Mr. Lincoln' Kejoiatsler.

As Mr. Lincoln stepped lorn ard th crowd aeat np three rousing cheers. Ma. Lcrcour said Fnxow It follows as a matter of course that a half-hoar answer to a speech of aa hour-and a-balf can oe bat a very harried one. 1 shall only be able to touch upon a few of tha points suggested by Jadgs Douglas, and give tbem a brief attention, while 1 shall have to totally omit others for the want of time.

Judge Donglaa has said to you that he has aot beea able to get from me aa answer to the question whether I am in favor ef negro-cilixenehip. So far ss I know, tbe Judge never asked me tho question before. Applause. lie shall hsve no occasion to ever ask it again, lor 1 tell him very tranklv that 1 am not in favor of negro citixenship. Renewed applause.

1 Tbis furnishes me sn occasion for saving a few words apon the subject, 1 mentioned in a certain speech ot mine which has been printed, that the Supremo Coart had decided tbat a negro con id aot possibly be made a citixen, and without saying wbat was my ground of complaint in regard to that, or whether 1 had any ground of complaint, Jndge Donglas has from tbat tbiog manufactured nearly every tbiog that he ever says about my disposilioo to produce an equality 'hetweea the aegroes snd the white people. (Laughter sad applause, If any one will read my speech, he will find 1 mentioned that aa one ot the points decided in the coarse of the Supreme Coart opinions bat I did not state what ol jeetion I had to it. But Judge mglas tells the people wbat my objection was wbea i did not tell them myseli. Load spphuiseand laughter. Sow mj bxi opuuoa is that the differeul Suites have the power to make a negro a citizen nnder the Constitution at tlie Unit States it tbey choose.

1 he Dred Scott decision decides that they have not that power. If the State of Illinois had'that power I sbonld be ef noeed to the exercise oi iu Cries uf "good," good," and appuuise. Thai is ail I have to say about it. Jmlge Donelaa has told yoa that he beard my peeces north aud my speeches waiih that he had heaid me at Oitaaa and at Fivejiort In tbe north, and recently at Jonesbore in the smith, and there was a very didi rent cast of sentiiarnt in the speeches made at tbe different point, i will not caturge npon Jndge Donrrlas that be wilfully misrepresents me, but I call upon every fair-mitided man to take these speeches and read tbem, and I dare aim to point out any d-fi'rrmrr orftrem sty printed tprttnem north and south. Greaicheer-uig.

liile 1 am here perhaps I ought to ssy a word, il 1 nave tne time. In rcc.inl tu the latter portion of Judge's sseeeh, slirli w-s sort of decks mat ioa ia reference to my having eaid 1 entertained the belief that this government would not endure, half slave and half free. I have aid a aad 1 did not aay it without what seemed to me to be good reasons. It perhaps would re quire more time than 1 have now to set forth these reasons in detail bnt let me ssk yoa a few questions. tiave we ever bad any peace os this slavery question No, no When are wo to have peace apoa it if it it kepi in the position it now occupies? ever uow are wa ever to have peace npon it 1 nst is an important Question.

To be sore if we will all stop and allow adge Doaglas aad his friends to march on in their present career linn I they plaat the institu tion ail over tbe nation, here and wherever else our bag waves, and we acquiesce in it, there will oe peace, put let me as juuge irongias now he is going to get tb. people to do that Ap plause. 1 have beea wrangling overtbia question for al least forty years. This waa tbe cause of tbe agitation resulting in the Missouri Cues prom tee this produced the trouble at tho annexation ot lexas, in tne aquuuuon ol tbe territory aq aired in the Mexican war. Agaia, this wss tbe trooblo which was quieted by tho Compromise of lo5u, whea it waa settled for-eter, as both the great political parlies je-clared in their Niuonal Conventions.

That forever turned oat to be at font years laughter when Judge Douglas hmteif reopened U. Immense applause, cries of "bit him agaia," Ac Wben ia it likely to some to ao end? He introduced the Netaka bill in 1 to put another end to the sUrery agitation. He promised tbat it would finish it all np immediately, and he has never made a speech since aatil he got into quarrel with the President, about the Lecouiptrm Constitution, ia which he has not declared tbat we are at the mi of tbe slavery agnation. Bat in one speech, 1 think last winter, he did say that he didn't quite Bee wben- tue end of the slavery agitation weald come, jcaorrhier and cheers Now be tells again tbat it is all over, and the people of Kansas have voted down the- LecompuiB Consntotetioo. How is it over? That waa only one ef tbe attempts at putting so end to tha slavery ssrfitatioo one of these final settie-aaewta." Renewed lasvghter.

Is Kasnas in tho lintou Has she formed Constitntion that .0 a is likely to come in under Is not the slavery agitation still sa open question in that Territory Has the voting down of that Comttltutica pnt aa end to all tbe trouble? Is that more bkely te settle it than every one of these previous attempts to settle tbe slavery agitation Cries of No," No." Now at this day in the history of the world can no more foretell wbr th end sf that slavery aettausa will bo than we can see the end of the world itsaif. The Nebraska-Kansas bill was introduced fear year and a half ago, and if the agitation ever comes to aa end, we may say we are four years and a balf Bearer the end. So, too, we can say we are four and a half years nearer tbe end of tbe world and we can just as clearly see tbe end of the world as we can the end of this agitatiou. Applause. The Kansas settlement fl id aot conclude it.

If Kansas should sink to-day snd leave a great vactnt space in the earth's surface, this vexed quealioa would suli be among us. I sav then there ia no way of potting an end to the eiaverv agitation amongst ns bat to pat it back apoa 'the basis where oar fathers placed st. lappL-uset no way hot aokeep it oat of our new Territories, renewed applause to restrict it forever to tbe old States wbere it now exists. rremendnus and prolonged cheering cries of "That's tbe doctrine," "Good," Good," An Then the pnblic mind ill rest in the belief that a t. th.

oeursd of ait: mala extinction, i That ia one wav of putting an end to the slavery agitation. Applause. The other way for as to sarreuder- sod let Judge Douglas aud his friends have their way and plant slavery over all the Suites cease speaking of it as in any way a wrong regard slavery as oneof the common tuattersai property, and speak of nefroes as we do of our nurses and cattie. But while drives on in its stat a ot prog ess as is uow driving, snd ss it has driven for the last are years. 1 have ventured the opinion, and 1 say fo-day, that we will have no end to the slavery aitnt on antil it takes one turner the other.

Applause. Ida not mean that when it takes a lura towards nki mate extinction it wiil be in a day. uor in y.ar, nor in two years, i do not suppose that a the most peacemt wsy Kittima'e ex inclion vould cc-etrr In less than a hundred years at the least tint tbat it wiU eocar ia tbe best way har beta races in God's own guod time, 1 have no doubt. I Ay-pi. use- But, wry friend, I hate used up more of mv tune than 1 mt ended on this point.

Now, ia regard to this matter about Trambnll and myself baving made a bargain to sell ont tbe eatira Whig snd Domosratie parties ia ls5V Jndge Doug las brings forward bo evidence to lyroocUjUaon the roun. Page-t question of facta to what Judge Douglas doing. Applause. I repeat that it Trumbull had himself been in the plot, it wonld not all relieve the others who were in it from blame. If I should be indicted for mnrder, and upon the trial it should be discovered that I had been implicated in that murder, but that the prosecuting witness was guilty too, that would at all touch the question of my crime.

It no relief to my neck that they discovered this other man who charged the crime upon me, to guilty, too. Another one of the points Judge Donglas makes upon Judge is, tbat when -be spoke in Chicago he made his charge to rest npon the fact tbat the bill bad the provision in for submitting the Constitution to a vote of people, when it went into his (Judge Doug-las') hands, that it was missing when he repotted it to the Senate, and that in a public speech had subsequently said the alteration in the was made while it was in committee, and that they were made i- consultation between htm a (Judge Douglas) and Toombs. And Judge Douglas goes on to comment npon the tact of Trumbull's adducing in his Alton speech proposition that tbe bill not only came back witn tnat proposition sincaen oat but with another clause and another provision it, saying that until the complete execution "of this act there shall be no election in said "Territory," which Trumbull argued was no, only taking the provision tor submitting to a vote of the people ont of the bill, but was adding an affirmative one, in that it prevented the people from exercising the right under a bill that was merely silent on the question. Now in regard to what he says, that Trambali shifts the issae that he shif ts bia ground and I believe uses the term, that it being proven false, he has changed ground" 1 call upon all of yoa, when yoa come to examine that portion ot Trumbull's speech, (for it will make a part of mine,) to examine whether Trumbull has shifted bis ground or not. I say he did not shift hia ground, bat that be brought forward his original charge and the evidence to sustain it yet more fully, but precisely as he originallymade it.

Then in addition thereto, he brought in a new piece ot evidence. He shifted no ground. He brought no new piece of evidence inconsistent with bis former testimony, and he brought new piece tending, as he thought, and as I think, to prove his proposition. To illustrate A man brings an accusation against another and on trial the man making the charge introduces A. and B.

to prove the accusation. At a second trial ha introduces the same witnesses, who tell the same story as before, and a third witness, who tells tbe same thing, and in addition, gives further testimony corroborative of tbe charge. So with TrambulL There was no shifting ot ground, nor inconsistency of testimony, between the new piece of evidence and what be originally introduced. tout judge uougias says mat ne nimseii moved to strike out that last provision of tbe bill, and thst on his motion it was stricken out and a surstitate inserted. That 1 presume is the truth.

1 presume it is true that that last Proposition was stricken out by Judge Douglas, rumbull has not said it was not. Trumbull has himself said that it was so stricken out, He says: "lam speaking of the bill as Judge Doug-" las reported it back. It was amended some-" what in the Senate before it passed, but I am "speaking of it as he brought it back." Now when Jndge Donglas parades the fact that the provision was stricken oat of the bill when it came back, he asserts nothing contrary to what Trumbull alleges. 1'rumbuil baa onlv said that he originally put it in not that he did not strike it out. Trumbull says it was not in the bill when it waut to the committee.

When it came back it was in and Judge Douglas said the alterations were made by him in consultation with Toombs. Trambnll alleges therefore as bis conclusion that Judge DoukIbs put it in. Then if Douglas wants to contradict Trnmball and call him a liar, let him say be did not pot it in, and not tbat he didn't take it out aain. It is aaid tbat a bear is sometimes hard enough poshed to drop a cub, and so I presume it waa in tbis case. Loud applause.

I presume the truth is that Douglas put it in and afterwards took it out. Laughter and cheers. That I take it is the truth about it. Judge Trumbull aaya one thing? Douglas savganother thing, and th i two don't contradict one another at all. The tustion iswhet he put it in In the first place what did he take the other provision out ot the bill for the provision which Trumbull argued waa necessary tor aabsaittin? the Constitution toavoteofthe people bat did he take that out for, and having taken it out what did he put tbis in tor i say that in the run of things it is not unlikely forces conspired to reader it vastly expedient for Judge Douglas to take that latter clause out again.

The question that Trumbull has made is that Judge Douglas put it in, and he don't meet Trambnll at all un less he daaiea that. In the clause of Judge Douglas' speech upon this subject be uses this language towards Judge TrnmbuiL He says He forges his evidence from beginning to end, and by falsifying the record he endeavors to bolster up his false Well, that ia a pretty serious statement, Trumbull forges his evidence from beginning to end. -Xow vpon my own authority I say that is not true, (threat cheers and laughter.) What is a forgery? Consider the evidence that Trumbull has broughtjfor-ward. When you come to read the speech as yea will be able to, examine whether the evidence is a forgery from beginning to end." Ea bad the bill or document in his hand like that holding a paper. I lie says tbat is a copy of the Toombs' bill tbe amendment offer ed by Toombs.

He says that is a copy of the bill as it was introduced and went into Judge Donglas' heads. Now, does Judge Douglas ssr that is a forgery? Tbat is one thing Trumbull brought forward. Judge Donglas save he forged it from beginning to end I That is the "beginning" we will say. Does Donglaa say that is a ibrgery Let him aay it to-day, and we will have a subsequent examination upon this subject. Loud applause.

Trumbull than holds np another doenmrot like this and savs that is an exact copy of the bill as it came back in tbe amended torm eat of Donplas' hands. Does Judge Douglas say that ia a forgery Doea be say it in bis genet-el sweeping eharge Does he say ao now If be does not then take this Toombs' bill and the bill in tbe amended form and it only needs to compare them to see tbat the provision is in the one and it ia not in tbe other it leaves the inference inevitable that it tens tohen nut. Applause. But while I am dealing with tbis question let us se what Trumbull's otber evidence ia One other peio pf evidence 1 will read. Trumbull says there are ra tai original Toombs' biU these words: That the totioijing propositions be, and the same are.

hereby ottered to the aaid convention of tbe people of Kansas when formed, for their free acceptance or rejection which, if accepted by the convention and rati-" tied by the people at the tlfltun fur the adop. the rs In jost will 'It or a If I ne canea npon an wbo were friends of negro equality and negro citixenship to rally as one man around Abraham Lincoln aa the ebiet embodiment ef their principle, and brail means to defeat cUephen A. Tronglaa. Laughter. Thus yon find tbat this Republican party ia the northern port of the State had colored gentle- men for their advocates in 155, as tbey have now in concert with Lincoln and Trumboll.

When, in ISM, 1 cams down to Springfield in October, to attend a State fair, 1 found tbe leaden of tbis party all asembled under the title of an anti-Nebraska meeting. It was Black Republican np North, anti-Nebraska at Springfield, and I fonnd Lovejoy, the high priest of Abolitionism, and Lincoln, one of tbe leaders, who wss to call theold tin- Whigs into the Abolition camp, end Breese and Gov. Reynolds all making speeches sgainst the Democratic party, and myself at the aarr.e pjace aad on the same oceasioq. The aame 'mea who are now fighting the Democratic party, ana other regular Democratic nominees in this. Stats were fighting then- Theydidj't then acknowledge that tbey h.ad beeothe Abolitionists, many of them deny it now.

Breese, and Dougherty, and Reynolds, were then lighting against the Democratic party under the title of Democrats. Now they are fighting against the Democratic party, pretending to be Simon-pure Democrats, and eay that they are to have every oHuce holders fa Illinois beheaded who prefers the etection of Dong-a la that of Lincoln or of the Democratic ticket to that Abolition ticket, either for State officers, for the Legislature, for Congress, or tor any other office in the State, Tbey canvassed the State in 1854 against us a they are doing Bow, holding different principles in different localities, i- 1 Now, if hem opposed to the Dred Scott for that reuroa, he nut be is favor of -u I fc A.